Rogue Learner
Rogue Learner
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Do you want your children to enjoy learning? Most parents would agree that their ultimate goal in educating their children is to create motivated life-long learners. Research shows us that motivation and excitement for learning are best achieved when learners are offered autonomy, trust, and resources that support their interests. Self-directed learning is at the heart of this educational model. In this podcast, we’ll explore ways to ignite our children’s curiosity and passion for learning through interviews with experts and families who have experienced first-hand the advantages of pursuing self-directed education.
Episode results
Rogue Learner
Mar 9, 2022
Supporting our Self Directed Teens with Blake Boles
Guest
Blake Boles
Official Bio: (From his website.)
Blake Boles is the founder and director of Unschool Adventures and the author of Why Are You Still Sending Your Kids to School?, The Art of Self-Directed Learning, Better Than College, and College Without High School. He hosts the Off-Trail Learning podcast and has delivered over 75 presentations for education conferences, alternative schools, and parent groups. Blake and his work have appeared on The New York Times, The Christian Science Monitor, BBC Travel, Psychology Today, Fox Business, TEDx, The Huffington Post, USA Today, NPR affiliate radio, and the blogs of Wired and The Wall Street Journal.
https://www.blakeboles.com
https://twitter.com/blakeboles
Why Are You Still Sending Your Kids to School? | Blake Boles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdjMdjO4NNs
Show Notes
Jenna begins by stating that as her own children move into their teen years she finds it more challenging to find meaningful learning activities that will hold their interest. This is why she is excited to talk today with her guest Blake Boles. He has spent more than a decade working with teens while hosting an ‘Unschool Adventure Camp.’ He is also the author of the following books:
‘Why are you still sending your kids to school?’,
‘The art of self-directed learning’
‘Better than college: How to build a successful life without a four year degree.’
He has contributed to many other publications as well.
Blake is the host of the Offtrail Learning Podcast and has given over 75 presentations to Alternative schools, educational conferences and parent groups.
He has been featured in:
The New York Times, The Christian Science Monitor, BBC Travel, Psychology Today, Fox Business, The Huffington Post, USA Today, NPR, and the blogs of Wired and The Wall Street Journal.
Jenna says she is excited to share Blake’s perspective on how to best support our teens quest for more autonomy and real world experiences. They will touch on mentorship and networking. Blake even shares a simple email structure that our kids can follow to connect with professionals in the fields that interest them. They also discuss the pushback that homeschoolers are receiving from experts who would like to see substantial regulatory practice here in the US for homeschooling families. At the end of the podcast Jenna says they will daydream a bit about the possibility of bringing adventure and challenges to communities all over the globe for our unschoolers. Perhaps it will inspire you to create one. Jenna hopes so!
Before we begin, Jenna wants listeners to know that she is still doing a book give-away. Just leave your review on Apple Podcasts, then email her and give her the screen-name you left the review under. She will put your name in a hat. (Yes, this is how it’s done!) The winner will win Blake Boles’ book ‘Why are you still sending your kids to school?’ For every five reviews, she will give away one copy of the book. Also, if you would like to join Jenna on the podcast to discuss any of the topics discussed on previous shows, you can be a co-host! Please reach out if you are interested! Lastly, Jenna says that the podcast has been so critical in helping her find community and learn, but she is looking for even more ways to connect with everyone. Sharing our stories and experiences really helps contribute to our personal growth. She is very thankful for those who have already reached out via email, voicemail and Zoom. She is looking for new ways to connect, form friendships, ask questions on a regular basis, read books together and discuss them. As she continues to find new resources she would really like to connect with you.
LINK TO SURVEY: GIVE YOUR FEEDBACK HERE
Jenna welcomes Blake to the podcast. She mentions that she just finished reading his book and wishes she had read it earlier in her journey to unschooling. She says there is just so much value in it regardless of whether you are alternative schooling or not. She feels that all parents should have a copy on their shelves. It offers so many perspectives on parenting and education. It is the first book she has read in which an author specifically states that remaining open and non-dogmatic are important to unschooling. Something Jenna whole-heartedly agrees with and has talked about on the show before. She shares a quote from the book. “I encourage you to fly no flag. Don’t join the Unschoolers and never look back. Instead, pledge allegiance to the young person in your charge. Familiarize yourself with the full spectrum of options. Whenever you feel like you’ve found the answer to your kid’s educational needs, add the words ‘for now.’ Jenna says she felt that in her bones. Her children are very different people, they have completely different needs. She feels that it’s so important to stay tuned in to each of them and their needs ‘right now.’
Blake responds and says that as even two siblings can be very different, a single child can be radically different between now and a few years from now. He feels that to embrace one pet educational philosophy or dogma and believe that it is the ONLY way forward is a bit short-sighted.
Jenna agrees and mentions that her own children have been in many educational environments over the years. Public school, private school, alternative schools and unschooling. As they have changed, their needs have changed. She asks Blake about what brought him to unschooling in the first place.
Blake states that he grew up in California and attended public school. He was good in school and enjoyed reading in his spare time and was ready for the internet when it came along. After High School he was interested in a career as a research scientist but realized that he wasn’t very interested in the subjects required for the degree (math & physics) also he stumbled onto the work of John Taylor Gatto . In an elective class about creating educational television. The instructor thought it would be more beneficial to read Mr. Gatto’s book, ‘A Different Kind of Teacher’ on alternative education, rather than to continue discussing how to make educational commercials. He went on to study more and more about self-directed and alternative schooling. He then went on to leave his science major and create his own major in Alternative Education at UCLA Berkeley.
Jenna says that she has now met several people who created their own degrees and is surprised that before that, she never even knew this was possible.
Blake says that universities don’t advertise it but if you look into the interdisciplinary studies department you can advocate for yourself. There are also universities out there that let everyone create their own degree. He gives the example of Prescott College.
Jenna mentions that this is near her in Arizona. Then she goes on to ask Blake about making the transition from the play-based learning of younger children to pre-teen years when kids begin to form goals and make plans for the future. How can parents guide them as peers begin to be more and more important. She mentions that on page 12 of Blake’s book he talks about schools being a place where kids are doing so many things that don’t really matter. She wonders, what IS a good use of their time?
Blake says that is a good question. For one kid it might be sewing for instance, but for another that may be irrelevant. Schools can’t give kids that kind of individual attention. There are so many options, outdoor education is a good place to start. For him this was transformative. Just getting out of his usual environment. He says that when he was in fifth grade he went to an outdoor education camp where they learned about plants, animals and other biology focused subjects. The best part was that it was like going to summer camp. He was super engaged. Then when he was fourteen he traveled to Chili with other students for a Spanish immersion experience and stayed wi…
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Rogue Learner
Feb 23, 2022
Learning Timelines, Screens, & Parental Compromises
Guest
Philip Mott
Philip is a former elementary school teacher who now offers parenting advice for busy and frustrated parents. He and his wife home school their three young children. He’s a regular contributor to Fathering Together and First Time Parent Magazine.
www.philipmott.com
www.fatheringtogether.org
https://www.firsttimeparentmagazine.com
You can also hear an interview with him on the podcast Front Row Dads. There are two parts:
Part One https://frontrowdads.com/philip-mott-part-1/
Part Two https://frontrowdads.com/philip-mott-part-2/
He is interviewed by Living Joyfully With Unschooling on the Exploring Unschooling podcast. View here on YouTube:
SHOW NOTES:
In today’s episode Jenna and Philip have an open and honest conversation about how each of their households handles things like screen time, bedtime and other common hurdles in unschooling.
Before we begin Jenna reminds listeners that she is always looking for new topics and questions you would like to hear addressed on the podcast. For instance, would you like to hear more from Jenna herself, more experts, other ideas? Also, remember to please leave a review as this helps grow the community.
Jenna begins the interview by asking Philip to explain his journey into self-directed learning.
Philip says that he began reading a lot about child development, student engagement, and why students are not fully engaged. He realized that he was becoming the teacher he himself would not have wanted when he was a student. His experience in school was not a good one which was one reason he wanted to become a teacher himself. At that time he felt he had fallen into an authoritarian role. After doing some reading he began to try to make his classroom more child centered. But he says that the writings of Magda Gerber, a parent child advocate who founded the Resources for Infant Educarers usually referred to as RIE, was a great inspiration for him. He found this resource when his child was thirteen months old and followed her advice on letting the child lead in play and learning. He had always followed a self-directed path in his own learning but hadn’t made the connection that it would be the same for even very young children. He and his wife were surprised and pleased that a child that young could be so self-directed. This was when they became hooked on self-directed learning and knew that they wanted that for their family.
Jenna notes that she is always surprised at how many educators there are who have an epiphany and says that she can relate to the feeling of becoming that teacher that you don’t want to be. She says that it felt uncomfortable and wrong but was brought on by stress and expectations which were out of her control.
Philip agrees and says that when he was teaching fifth grade at an online school he was on a team that kept him from implementing some of the things he wanted to try. He did create a program he called ‘Connect’ in which he would engage with students in order to build a relationship beyond just academics. He tracked grades during this time and saw that the extra engagement with his students did improve their interest and success in class. But, it still didn’t make up for the fact that trying to teach everyone the same thing at the same time was really not working. The curriculum keeps teachers bound to a timeline teaching specific skills at specific times.
Jenna asks if there is in his opinion any time that any one skill MUST be learned.
Philip says that it is less about when or even what is absolutely needed to be known or learned, but is much more imperative that the child not be made to feel inadequate if they fail to learn something at the time we expect them to learn it. Even if parents don’t criticize or punish their child for not learning a skill, they receive the message of unworthiness from standardized testing, the grading system etc.
Jenna mentions that some teachers put the scores on the board following a test. She wonders if this is supposed to motivate the students.
Philip says he wonders if it has become more valuable to beat another person rather than to learn and nurture relationships. He says that some of the philosophical reasoning within racism and feminism can teach about children and learning. He mentions the book ‘For Her Own Good’ by Barbara Ehrenreich and Deirdre English. The book addresses the wife having no say, and kids often find themselves in the same position. A power over vs power with mentality.
Jenna mentions a podcast episode by Brene Brown, where she discusses the Power Over vs Power With paradigm.
Jenna goes on to ask Philip if is familiar with Peter Gray’s assertion that language is the only subject that must be learned by age four and does he agree.
Philip says that in his own experience it has been the case that timelines on learning are very individual. He gives the example of his own learning. As he said before he was not a good student even in high school. But, in college he was ready to learn and did well. He supposes that exposure to one’s native language would most likely occur naturally.
Jenna says she was speaking with a friend recently and they brought up the fact that as students they didn’t learn much about technology as it hadn’t been invented yet. Now, everytime new tech comes along they all learn to use it. An example of learning when the need occurs.
Philip mentions that people are even learning things about how things were done ages ago. There are many YouTube channels dedicated to learning skills and tasks of old. Jenna mentions a project in Germany where they’ve used period-appropriate tools, materials, and techniques.
Jenna points out that the driving force in self-directed learning is curiosity.
Philip states that within their home school ‘Curiosity is the Curriculum’ is their motto. An example he gives of a typical day is this. His kids are really into Pokemon right now. So, they will watch an episode or two and then go downstairs to the basement and act it out. His older son has learned all of the characters, cards, hit points etc. He is using a lot of skills including math. He advises parents to stop and observe what kids are doing and be able to see and recognize that their learning is fun and they are using valuable skills.
Jenna mentions that she has observed her kids especially on excursions and that natural conversations occur that inspire learning. As a teacher she could see the learning but it was very subtle. With her son, his big interest at the moment is video games. He has learned by trying and failing and trying again. As he improved and learned organizational skills as well as the tech, he now shares his skills on Twitch. He learned a lot of soft skills that could one day be applied to a career. Academics she says can be learned and proven, whereas soft skills are more fluid.
Philip agrees that academics have all these benchmarks and soft skills are harder to master. Even though Jenna’s son is showing leadership skills, there may be times when he doesn’t take a leadership role and that’s okay. He goes on to talk about labeling kids. One label he hears a lot is regarding ‘the strong-willed child.’ Once you decide your child is strong-willed, you tend to see everything they do through that lens. He wonders how it helps a parent to label a child strong-willed. While they may have been strong-willed yesterday, he believes we should give our loved ones a new chance everyday.
Jenna says this reminds her of a podcast she listened to by Blake Boles interviewing Naomi Fisher on the topic of Nature vs Nurture. Perhaps it is the dynamic between parent and child. For instance maybe the parent is very authoritative and that impacts the child’s behavior. It goes both ways and can be very different between children within the same household.
Philip says it is impossible to be the same parent to all of his kids. His kids are very…
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Rogue Learner
Feb 9, 2022
Online Alternatives to Traditional Schools: a conversation with Victoria Ransom from Prisma
Guest
Victoria Ransom
Victoria Ransom is a serial entrepreneur from New Zealand. She has developed four companies including Wildfire Interactive, a social marketing SaaS company, where Ransom was CEO until it was sold to Google in 2012. She was named Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year Award for New Zealand in 2011. Fortune Magazine honored her as one of the Forty Most Powerful Women Under Forty in 2012. In 2013, she was invited to the White House by President Barack Obama to receive a "Champion of Change" award recognizing her contributions as an immigrant entrepreneur. In 2015, she was awarded the World Class New Zealander award along with former New Zealand Prime Minister, Helen Clark. In 2016, she was NEXT Woman of the Year in the Business and Innovation category.
In 2020, Ransom co-founded Prisma, a remote education startup. Victoria has been interviewed by Bloomberg News, The Corner Office, The New York Times and The Wallstreet Journal.
https://www.joinprisma.com/
https://www.facebook.com/joinprisma/videos/the-prisma-story-vision/1128347837551554/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzqdwPI1kFylYq19kQ1F18g
https://twitter.com/victoria_ransom
https://www.linkedin.com/in/victoriaransom
Show Notes
Jenna’s intro: Jenna begins the show by reminding listeners that they can leave a voicemail for the podcast and she will read it on the show. Good or bad, she wants your input! Your comments, feedback and suggestions are much appreciated. You can find the link here.
Jenna introduces Victoria and explains that while the online school Prisma is not completely self-directed, it can be a good fit for families with kids that need more structure or are eager for more of a community in light of challenges to group meet-ups during the pandemic. Prisma is an alternative flex school with five week cycles during the year. This makes it a good choice for unschoolers to participate in and for world schoolers who do a lot of traveling.
Victoria tells us a bit about her journey. She is the mother of three and her journey in education began when her oldest reached school age. One thing that concerned her with traditional education was the rapidly changing world we live in, which she believed needed a broader skill set than conventional schools could provide. She was also concerned about the fierce competition and stressful environment, especially where she lives in northern California. She researched homeschooling, alternative and micro schools. She wanted a flexible environment where children could be led by their interests. Something that focused on problem solving and critical thinking. This is when she began to imagine creating something that would not only be best for her own children, but for other families as well.
Jenna asks Victoria to tell us who Prisma serves. What do the families enrolled in Prisma look like?
Victoria says that a common thread is that most of the parents at Prisma want their children to love learning. They are looking to Prisma to provide a toolbox that can help them be able to do many types of work by teaching them critical thinking and problem solving. The kids should be challenged and excited.
Jenna asks about the ages and prior circumstances of the children enrolled in Prisma.
Victoria tells us that the program currently serves grades 4 - 8 at the moment with plans to expand. Prisma grew quite a bit during Covid19 because many children were homeschooling. With Prisma, families found much more flexibility versus a traditional school moved to online. Some of the kids in Prisma are gifted and just felt bored or unchallenged at school. Some have difficulties that made conventional school difficult for them. These children thrive when they are able to move at their own pace. Victoria mentions that Prisma does do some assessment tests and academic growth is occurring.
Jenna asks what a typical Prisma day looks like.
Victoria says that students meet up several times a day. There are workshops, learner clubs, and projects. Coaches help a few kids at a time. Each of the 5 week cycles has a theme. For example, one cycle the theme was “Unchartered Territories.” Within this theme some of the subjects they learned about were space and deep sea exploration. Also, the children regularly do presentations for the parents. In core subjects math, writing and reading the children learn skills that they can apply to real world problems.
Jenna asks how the child’s interests come into play.
Victoria answers that a coach might encourage them to do a ‘Journey.’ For example, a fifth grader has started a ‘Journey’ to write a novel. Another student might decide to do a ‘Journey’ on space travel. Within the theme of the cycle, any student can propose their own project or ‘Journey.’ Within writing assignments kids are given a lot of choice and ability to write about things that they are excited about.
Jenna wonders how the Prisma school works with world schoolers, as they can do the work remotely.
Victoria says that the beauty of this model is that if the child has to be away for a while, they can adapt and alter the expectations for that student within the cycle. Every Prisma student can make their own schedule with the assistance of a coach. There are always physical aspects and options to the curriculum so that kids are not in front of a screen the whole time.
Jenna brings up the financial aspect of choosing a school such as Prisma as some families would not be able to afford the cost.
Victoria says that they have financial aid and that approx. 40% of the students are currently receiving some assistance. The school is also looking into trying some different ways to lower the cost and make it more available to everyone. One way to do this would be to offer different levels or versions which would involve more parent involvement. There are many plans in the works. As mentioned before they have plans to extend the age range they serve. Victoria says that they are likely adding grades through high school but may not add grades younger than fourth. This is because younger children don’t do as well working in a virtual environment and fourth grade is often when kids start to lose interest in school.This could be connected to the fact that standardized testing often begins then.
Jenna asks about how the Prisma families are registered in their state / country. As homeschoolers or as online schoolers.
Victoria states that most are registered as homeschoolers. She says that the accreditation process has many disadvantages as there are criteria to meet which
might restrict their ability to run the school the way they envision.
Jenna wonders if Prisma could work for unschoolers.
Victoria says that yes, they do have a few unschoolers that attend a few cycles per year. She feels that it probably wouldn’t make a lot of sense to do Prisma if they only attended sporadically.
Jenna wraps up the interview asking Victoria the four questions she usually asks all of her guests.
* What are you curious about? Victoria says she is curious about education of course, but also health. Everything about it. Nutrition, exercise, sleep, etc.
* What is your favorite way to learn? Victoria says her favorite way to learn is reading, then podcasts and the news.
* Jenna changes it up with this question. (Usually she asks “What is a resource you want to share?”) This time she asks “How have you used self directed learning in your life?”
Victoria says that as a young child she was very good at school and thrived in it.
But, as she got older she found it really hard to choose a career.
She became interested in education and entrepreneurship and once focused on
something she could really dig into, she went full swing into the self directed
learning path.
Jenna and Victoria briefly discuss their shared school experience and agree that maybe adults should be more mindful of a child’s interests / what excites the…
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Virtual Kitchen Table
Jan 22, 2023
Episode #7: Beginning Unschooling During a Pandemic: Part One
This was originally a conversation recorded for and posted to the Stories of Unschooling Families online community in Spring of 2022 and we decided to include it as an episode.
Ashley and Erin had an opportunity to talk to Jenna Reich of Rogue Learner podcast and website and Jenna Reich Photography about Ashley’s and Jenna’s journey into beginning home education, specifically unschooling or self-directed education. This was an interesting opportunity to discuss beginning homeschooling during and/or because of the pandemic with two parents who also happen to have worked in the education system.
We Discuss:
How homeschoolers went from sort of being tolerated to being sought out
The initial freedom of learning together as a family to families feeling bogged down by online school
The misunderstanding of what home education is and the mixing that up with online public school
The individual family journeys to home education
Physical symptoms of school anxiety
The reasons for mov…
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Ordinary Sherpa: Family Adventure Coaching and Design
Dec 22, 2021
056 | Are you a Rogue Learner? with Jenna Reich
As I sit on the platform about to jump into 2022 with a bit of hesitation and bit of unrelenting eagerness I find myself coming out of an overwhelmed and demanding November schedule only to jump into escape and retreat mode in early December. In addition to my workload, I sent my book to the editor, the kids were in the thick of all the not-fun parts of school. We created some much needed family time the last few weekends and are scurrying to take one last adventure to round out 2021. I will be rounding out 2021 hiking and reviewing what my editor called “red fairy dust” that fills my manuscript pages. Yes, I am writing a book and in Phase 2 of edits and preparing to launch this work of heart out into the world which will be a new adventure for 2022: Publishing a Book. There are 2 things you can do to help me:
1. If you would like to pre-read, give me feedback and help me launch the book into the universe you can sign up to be on my launch team. The pre-read is a great o…
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