The AmWritingFantasy Podcast: Episode 126 – Magic Systems Explained
Play • 48 min

How do you create a magic system for your novel that is both unique and interesting? How do you tackle magic systems when worldbuilding a fantasy setting?

Tune in to episode 126 of the Am Writing Fantasy podcast where Autumn and Jesper share exactly how they create magic systems for their fantasy world.

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Read the full transcript below.

(Please note that it's automatically generated and while the AI is super cool, it isn't perfect. There may be misspellings or incorrect words on occasion).

Narrator (2s):
You're listening to The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast. In today's publishing landscape, you can reach fans all over the world. Query letters are a thing of the past. You don't even need a literary agent, there is nothing standing in the way of making a living from writing. Join two best selling authors who have self published more than 20 books between them. Now on to the show with your hosts, Autumn Birt and Jesper Schmidt.

Jesper (30s):
Hello, I'm Jesper.

Autumn (32s):
And I am Autumn.

Jesper (34s):
This is episode 126 of the Am Writing Fantasy Podcast. And I honestly don't know how we waited this long to discuss how to create a magic system, but never... what do you say? Never late than never or what do you say?

Autumn (51s):
That definitely works for me. Magic is like foundational a way where we've been joking about-

Jesper (57s):
Better late than never, that's what you're supposed to say. Not never late than never, that makes no sense.

Autumn (1m 4s):
Well, you know, my English wasn't perfect sometimes either. Oh, and this is, should it be interesting? Definitely. It would've been joking about magic and destroying computers all day. So, Hey, well, I know to talk about how you would develop that, if that was your story.

Jesper (1m 23s):
Yeah. Yeah. I'm really looking forward to it because Magic Systems, that is one of my favorite topics.

Autumn (1m 31s):
This world needs a better Magic System. If I was writing Earth it would probably be bad for some people.

Jesper (1m 40s):
No honestly, there's not enough magic in real life. Not we need more.

Autumn (1m 46s):
Magic definitely, this was the story, a totally different anyway. So how are things over a year, a side of the planet?

Jesper (1m 56s):
It's good, not too many exciting things going on here. To be honest, I'm working on the chapter by chapter plotting of the two and our new Sherry's and a, I should not be done by the end of this week. I hope so that yeah, so that, that's a pretty good, I'm just working on that. And a otherwise soccer is really picking back up here in Denmark last Saturday we had 500 matches to cover and the region that I belonged to, which was a, too much. So we actually have to tell some teams that a, they would not go there were not going to get a referee. Ow, because we didn't have it anymore.

Jesper (2m 36s):
It was just too many matches on one day they're excited. The COVID spraying, you know, lets go for it. Everybody is just wanting to play matches with just of course it was cool, but it's everybody wants to play out at the same day becomes a problem. Yeah. So just this week alone, I have three matches to referee. So yeah, in that sense it's a bit busy that you could say.

Autumn (2m 59s):
I was going to say on top of writing on top of, you know, everything else that you got going on plus work and yeah, that just keeps you on your toes is a little bit.

Jesper (3m 12s):
Yeah, just a little, maybe I'm going to be a bit tired and once we reached the weekend, but I have to referee a medicine that weekend as well. So that's not, you know, let's do it. I'm going to get much arrest. So Sunday I'm just going to be on the couch. Like yeah, I think it will. It'll be a well deserved couch day. I hope it is quiet and rainy and you don't feel like going out and you can just be like surf the internet and watch Netflix. Yeah. I can watch more of American gods. Like we talked about it in a past episode and I started to finish the entire first session of a season of it now. It's good.

Autumn (3m 45s):
All right. I've got to like a 14 day span coming up where I'm solo on. I might put that on the list.

Jesper (3m 52s):
I like it is. It's a really good, cool. I haven't checked though to be honest because there was only three seasons and I have not checked if, because I'm always concerned about checking on online about because then I'm going to get spoilers or something, but I have not checked if it's like a proper ending seasonal or if it's just the one of those where they're just not funding it and it just stops in the middle of it. I have not checked that, but I just have fingers crossed right now that is going to be a proper ending. And they had planned to end by the end of the season three, if not, then I'm going to get a bit upset.

Autumn (4m 28s):
But do I do remember reading that, that yeah, a Netflix likes to have a series that only go two or three. So hopefully people are writing, knowing that Netflix prefers is the only two or three seasons.

Jesper (4m 38s):
Yeah, but this one is Amazon prime.

Autumn (4m 41s):
Oh, that's right. Darn Ooh. I don't know. Good luck. Yeah. I don't know. Well, and I dare not look it up on the internet. So the, I don't mind, but how about you? What do you, what are you doing these days? At least a book. So I'm happy yesterday. Revolution came out. I mean, when we're recording this, it record it out. It came out just a few days ago. So by the time it's out in the world, the book will have been out for a little while. But yeah, so it's good to have only one more book to go and my teen to face here. So I can't weight and I'm working on the edits for that one at the same time, working on edits for our co-written book one. So I'm editing and editing and doing some graphic design just to keep my sanity I suppose, and what is going for some Wachs, but we're getting the spring rains, which we desperately need.

Autumn (5m 27s):
So I can't complain, but that means more inside time than outside time. Oh, you must be going crazy by all that editing by now. Jesus, I'll be happy when I finished tainted Fe and that I'm just working on our books and it will be much smoother.

1 (5m 42s):
My may is going to be a busy month for me as far as trying to juggle way too many things. But after this, hopefully it'll smooth out a little bit and I will and mention I'll be a little solo for almost two weeks. So that should just work myself to death, you know, forget, sleep, pretend like I'm not a vampire. And what is your plan? It particularly to have a college student, I could work all night. That's what I'm going to do, but it's a wonderful of working on is wonderful. I can't complain. I just need more hours than the day.

Narrator (6m 20s):
A week on the internet with The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast.

Jesper (6m 25s):
A few things to cover in this section today, but the most important part first. So we want to give a shout out and thank you to Creative Gray and James Delton. I think that's how you say it for joining us on Patreon.

Autumn (6m 42s):
Yes. Thank you for your always appreciate having your supporter.

Jesper (6m 46s):
Yeah. And not only is that, Dominic also increased his pledge. So thank you for your support as well, Dominic. So it is because if you guys together, of course, with the existing patron supporters that we can keep this show going. So if you are listening out there and you haven't checked patron out yet, then ask yourself if you feel that this podcast is perhaps worth a dollar a month.

Autumn (7m 12s):
Maybe I, we, we hope we think so. I would support us if I wasn't already supporting that. I give my title for Bella, give herself a dollar. Sounds good.

Jesper (7m 24s):
Well, that is a link to the show notes from where you can check out Patrion and all their rewards that we offer all over there. If you're interested. And once again, thank you so much a to creative, great James store and Dominic for, for you or pledges a, we really appreciate it. Yes, definitely. Thank you. And the other thing I wanted to mention, speaking of Patrion, I think everybody probably heard about Kindle alibi now, but I actually wrote a detailed overview together with my personal recommendations on Kindle Vela for our patron supporters. So by joining on patron, you are also gonna get access to that and tons and tons of advice that a we don't share anywhere else.

Jesper (8m 10s):
And a autumn, you have written quite a number of advice, articles and so on, on patron as well to join my writing tips and things their yes. Yeah. So a very good a we, we loved to see actually it is so that once we get to $100 a month on Patreon, which we are very, very close to, then we actually going to do a dedicated patron Q and a session on only for patron supporters. So, you know, if somebody wants to get in on that, you could jump in now and then just a play it's a bit there on patron.

Jesper (8m 51s):
And it's probably is not going to take too much to put it over the top. So that's true. And then we good to go that, what do you find? Oh, I can't wait. I, because I do, we've actually gotten to talk to a couple of our Patreon supporters and they're all awesome. And that would be really cool to get the help of a zoom chat are something with them. Yeah. And we'd just a, before the recording, this podcast episode, we also just came off the monthly Q and a session we do with all the students and old patron supporters at, at $5 and up. Ah, and it's, it's just wonderful. I love the interaction with people and I love the, you know, being able to see people's faces even better when they joined life. But also some people that just email it in some questions with this wonderful.

Jesper (9m 34s):
And I love being able to help directly like that. A it's it's fun to do the podcast, but that's more generic. Whereas the Q and a session is just responding directly to peoples' questions. So thats, I love that. Oh, you two, are you hoping? And you know, with COVID easing up, maybe there'll be more conferences and stuff again, because yeah. I love the in-person stuff. It's so much fun. Yeah. And we still have it on the idealist to see if we could do some sort of Am Writing Fantasy thing, maybe a live thing with P seeing people live and stuff like that to sounds dangerous, but maybe we should do that.

Autumn (10m 15s):
One day was six foot distancing, but where did you see me? The Facebook group, his over almost a 4.5 are for 4,500 members. So you, you know, that it would be a quiet the party. Yeah. That was going to be quite a bit crazy. I think it would be, yeah.

Narrator (10m 40s):
And on to today's topic.

Jesper (10m 40s):
So yeah, as I said at the top Magic Systems are probably apart from map-making one of my favorite topics, because it's such an integral part of the fantasy genre. It is. I, it is funny though, because I think I still remember writing, reading fantasy as a, you know, a young kid and thinking, oh, this is so cool.

Autumn (11m 0s):
And I just assumed all magic was Magic you know, is like the same as Tolkien to the, the theme is the first story you've read. All magic is going to be like that. And it was sort of the introduction that magic could be different in different stories and then there's limitations and how you overcome them that I'm like, oh, this is really cool. And then you start thinking, what kind of magic would I have? We just got asked that on the podcast, what kind of magic would you want? And it, it was just so fun to think about. And especially as a writer to structure magic and to do that, what are the weaknesses? What are the strengths? How can you overcome it? I, to me, those are the F the best parts of writing or figuring those things out and then putting two people together and having a battle and yeah.

Jesper (11m 43s):
To be good. Yeah. And there, it is also a very nice with a, with a magic wand, if it's just part of the it's part of a shopping cart. I had to me that if you read a, a fantasy novel and the magic just doesn't it. Okay. I'm not saying every single fence as you, Brooke has to have to have a lot of magic in it, but if it, if it's not a, at least the way in one way or another, and it's, it's also maybe a bit cool, you know, that it is not just the same thing you've seen a million times before then it makes a difference. I agree. Definitely. It makes it, there's just something really cool.

Autumn (12m 24s):
Well, this is what's part partially memorable, but yeah, I can't see either of us ever writing a low fantasy novel with very little magic, then I did right. A dystopian series where there is no magic, but lots of explosions. Sometimes it gets a prize yourself. You know, I have to admit those. That was, I was at the time I was writing my elemental magic fantasy series. And so that was that magic. And I just wanted something that was, couldn't be solved with magic. And it was a challenge to switch to something where things had to be done with just wit and intelligence and guns on them. It can be interesting, but yeah, I prefer a fantasy.

Autumn (13m 6s):
I prefer a magic and I think it's really fun. We've come up with some really different systems and through our own books. And then the book were writing together that make the magic, even that much more fun and interesting to write about. Yeah. So as part of the world, a building cost that we're offering on Am Writing Fantasy dot com, we have an entire module on developing Magic Systems. And within that, we have created six rules of magic and the course will go into a lot more details about what about ease of the six rules and add them what a lot more content to them. A, but in this episode here on the podcast today, we were thinking to just go through, let's say a bit more quick and then yet not totally quick overview of all the sections.

Autumn (13m 59s):
I think that sounds very good. And you recorded this module, so I will let you lead. I already missed you. You, you said you were Mo that this is your structure, so I will follow up. Yeah. So basically we'll just go through the six rules of magic here and yeah. And then we can talk a bit about it as we go as well. Yeah. And hopefully it'll help people to inspire you listeners for when you're doing your Magic Systems. So first rule of magic, it sounds like first rule of fight club, world. Was it like you liked these rules? All righty.

Jesper (14m 40s):
The first of all of a magic. So in order to explain our first rule of magic, I think I need to set the scene a bit because you see Magic Systems can either be very specific, but they can also be vague and mysterious or somewhere in between. That makes sense. Yep. Exactly. So if you take an example here takes a lot of the ring's for example. So on one hand we find magic and the, a lot of the rings that is very specific. So like the one ring, it is very clear what the one, one ring does and how it works.

Jesper (15m 20s):
It has rules, right? So that's a pretty obviously, conversely, we also find magic in middle earth that seems to have absolutely no rules and laws. Scandals is, yeah. He's the perfect example right there. And there are those, let's say that the magic of middle earth and it's especially with Gandel that is just too random. You know, one moment you will have Gandel running for his life, trying to escape orcs, and that the next one minute he pulls off some weird magic trick that you never heard about it before. And we didn't even know what it was possible in the setting. A, so there was a debate about that, and I'm not going to go into it.

Jesper (15m 60s):
It's a big, big rabbit hole. And the way I've seen some of the crazy conversations going on about that. So we'll leave that to everybody else to debate. But what I want to say about it, it was more than that. If you are looking at candles magic, then it is less rules and much more mystique. So you don't quite know what he can do really. And on the other hand, the ring, you know, you know exactly what you can do that. So I think, yeah, those, those were, there was one thing that I wanted to point out with Gandel for here. And actually I put paired a shorter audio clip here.

Jesper (16m 41s):
OK. And it is one of my favorite scenes in a lot of the rings and a, if you are ready for this and let me play it, and then I'll S I'll tell you afterwards why I included it. Is there better be irrelevance? You're not just geeking out on Lord of the rings. Yeah. I'm just going to play like 15 different sign clips from a lot of the rings. And there is no relevance whatsoever except for the Suffolk. Yeah, that sounds good. Okay. But maybe there was a relevance, but you could say if you could work out what it is that right.

Jesper (17m 57s):
I still get the goosebumps from listening to that is such a good to see which we could show the whole, like the actual, it would be so dramatic that you remember what is right. I care. And to remember what he, his fighting off, but yes, he is a little standing there and I say, you know, you were a not going any further and he's fighting the bell rock. That's what I, it was, I was like, I know is not the dragon. What is that? What is it? What it is it all right. I know where to go watch these movies again. Yeah, yeah. But the reason why included this, because it, you can hear the Clippy proclaims to be that wheel the, of the flavor of Anna. And we have absolutely no idea what the secret file is all about. It, it has never been mentioned before and the entire book a and well, he is just a, a wheel, all of it, for some reason, it could be making point that's the whole point, right?

Jesper (18m 48s):
It is intriguing. And it leaves us with like a sense of wonder on, we like a wonder what that is, is it sounds cool, but we don't really know what it is. So it put it into different words. Apart from the one ring Lord of the rings is what we can categorize as a soft magic system. So this is basically, if you ignore the one ring, this is where you have no rules. And the author doesn't really probably know himself or herself. What the extent of magic is what it can, it cannot do that. And it says what type of Magic Systems. And to me, I mean, as a writer, I used to think I would never like a soft magic system, but my favorite books, RSF to Magic Systems and in their own a way it's kind of fun.

Autumn (19m 30s):
I usually like rules because of that. I know how to break them and how to build tension, but it's also kind of fun to be like, it's not a, you could do whatever you want to know how this small little browny being like, well, do you mean, you know, that you can do that with a magic it's magic. So there is something, but for that as well. Absolutely. I think the key with a soft magic system is to be careful with the Dale's X marketer. So if people don't know there was an ex mark, and that is translated into the Cod in the machine, which basically means that a well, something within the machine will all of a sudden make it work. And then everything is resolved. And that, that in other words, to the problem with a soft Magic Systems is that let's say you reached the climax of your novel and the character is in a pinch there.

Jesper (20m 18s):
And it's a big, big problem at, and all of a sudden, it just pull some Rahm, spell out the nobody has heard about it before. And then he went to the, or defeats a dragon. And Winster everything that you want it to win or whatever that can feel a bit like, yeah, it it's a bit cheap is not a good resolution of an entire novel that you just pull out a random spell that fixes everything. So why don't you do it on metric system B careful with that stuff for the messaging systems. And I think that that's a way like some hard Magic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm on the opposite. At the end of the scale, we have the rule based Magic Systems. So this is referred to as hot magic, like you just said, and this example, it could be Patrick Ruthers or a Brandon Sanderson.

Jesper (21m 4s):
There are often found in this category. So a rule-based magic system just means that the reader us know what magic can and cannot do. So all of a sudden, you don't even have to worry about Davis X Makena anymore because there are rules to be followed. And the character's just cannot do whatever they pleased because its not possible within the Magic system. So they have the characters have to use their resolve and intelligence to figure out how maybe to use magic. But when, how can we use the magic two that advantage then it's not just putting out a, a spell. You never heard about it before. So we have a pretty hot magic system in our setting a Autumn.

Autumn (21m 45s):
Yes, definitely. Even to have a list of dispels that you could cast. Oh yeah. I think we have a very, I don't think I've had a heart of a magic system that is hard before. I mean, it's very, and it's very limited. It is like, you know what a nine things that you can do. So it is very, very limited and it's different. Cause it's, I think I'm somewhere usually in the middle where it's like, these are the certain rules, but if you could, of what you're doing, you can kind of like, you know, combine and overlap and discover new possibility is using the same rule system, which is always fun. But yeah, hard magic is neat though, because you do know the rules, you know what they are, what you can't do.

Autumn (22m 26s):
And so, you know, sort of like where the limits are, you know, what can cause tension? Okay. It's almost like Superman and kryptonite, but its it's more interactive and the interplay and that lends in the stress, it's, it's a understandable output so that, you know, the character can fall and be defeated and you're like, oh gosh, no, because this is what gets me with a doctor who with a Sonic screwdriver that light can do anything is a Sonic screwdriver. It, it should not be able to save the world, but it can and some episodes and that just drives me absolutely crazy. So you have to be careful if you do create rules, you don't then throw them to the wind.

Jesper (23m 8s):
No, I agree. But as you say, of course it can also be in-between somewhere, like just mentioned a, that it's a bit hard Magic Systems, but then not quite so J K Rowling. It's usually in here with her Harry Potter series that there is some rules within the Harry Potter, a universal magic sister, but then not quite any way, because then sometimes he pulls up some stuff that you never heard about it again. So there is also that possibility to, to, to, to settle your Magic Systems somewhere in between these two end points. And it is probably to the last a week, it's a sliding scale right there. You can play it with it as you want, but basically without realizing we actually covered the first rule of magic here, 'cause the first of all of our magic is to decide what kind of Magic Systems are you going to construct you?

Jesper (23m 55s):
This is a subject to the rules or is it not? Is it somewhere in-between, that's the first of all of magic. That's the first thing that you decide that it's a pretty cool rule. So I'm going to go with hybrid because it's good to have some wiggle room. Well, yeah, I actually liked most of them to be honest. I, I think that that each of them have their own challenges and they also come with their own benefits. A I don't necessarily, I think have a preference. I think most of it is. Okay. So the only thing that I don't like is it is to the soft magic system where all of a sudden, you, you do like the Gandel stumps. I don't like that to be honest because it just feels too easy. It feels like the author didn't know what to do.

Jesper (24m 35s):
So all of a sudden the magic used to just pull it up some stunts and then, oh, look at that. Everything was resolved. Yeah. I don't like that. But, but other than that than I think all of them are equally good. A AMPATH jail. There's a magic. We're good. Yeah. So second rule of magic. All right. This one asks, where does magic come from? That's interesting as well. So is it, it could be that you pull magic from nature, maybe from the spirits, maybe from another realm, maybe you pull energy off of things or you get from the gods or maybe from within yourself, there's a million options.

Jesper (25m 21s):
Yes. Reading, spell books, you, but then you'll probably a pill pulling it either from within yourself or your poorly is it's more about the second role is more about it. It's not so much of that, how you create the spell, but is more about where do you get where the, to the energy for the magic com from basically. So you, are you getting granted magic skills by the gods because you pray to them, for example, do you pull it from demons or do you lay lines with like, yeah. Yeah. Like what, like, you know, a setting where they call it the magic users to pull them, put it from within themselves because a magic system is based on emotions.

Jesper (26m 2s):
So you have to funnel your own emotions in order to, or channel you own own emotions in order to cast spells. So, but it could be a million things. But the answer to the question gives you a lot of interesting things to play on for the next coming rules here. Oh, okay. I like that one to, yeah. So should we move on to rule number three? Yeah. I don't think I have anything to add, but that makes sense. Cause yeah, it's not necessarily that like you have a type, a magic like elemental magic. It is. Is it the gods granting in the magic or is it your own innate solar ability or a power that it's like a, a another sense. So, okay. I got that one. You've got that.

Jesper (26m 43s):
Okay. Third role of magic or how can create a broken magic system that is, that sounded all, isn't it? You know, I don't think that what would you want to create a broken metric system where the thing is leaving space for magic to fail on? Not to always go asked. It was intended. That creates another sense of wonder. And it also hints of some sort of hidden depth within the magic system that keeps it intriguing and interesting. When do you spell Casa as well? When they had to deal with, or maybe some setbacks are disasters to one is once and awhile from a spell that goes wrong or maybe just doesn't happen at all a or something, you know?

Jesper (27m 25s):
But if you could create, create some sort, it should not happen very often obviously. But if you could create something that just once in awhile, the magic just doesn't work. Like you expected it to. Yeah, that, that is interesting. I think so. I that's why like this roll is definitely one of my favorites cause I, well, its not because I'm a really good at breaking things. I, but I have a really good at breaking them, but I do good with that. But I think is interesting if you know that if things go wrong, if things can go wonky and you know, you, it pushes your characters into the situations that are you even more, a tense that is better for the reader as better for your story.

Autumn (28m 6s):
It's so exciting. It, this is why I can do the completely soft Magic system where it's like, well you could do this, but then tomorrow you can't. I like to have at least some kind of groundwork groundwork laid that. I know some things are some things hold true. It is like if a gravity started just tomorrow, decided to reverse for 15 minutes, then to save you from getting hit by a car, wouldn't it be fantastic. But yeah. So I think this is a good one that maybe a lot of people don't think about it until they are trying to fight. But if you want to start thinking of your climax and thinking of ways your hero can fail, you need to know where are the weaknesses or how, how things can go wrong.

Autumn (28m 47s):
I still loved that about what it is the first time I have a dragon Lance and a red light. How you forget the smell after you, you cast it. So then you have a sit down, do you have to reread it again? I'm like, that's cool. That is really fun to have that weakness. You cast something and then you're like sugar. I need it again. And you to go and do this. Yeah, no, yes. It's true. That's the way it comes from D N D that that's the thing in draglines there. But, but that, that is a very cool, but I think as well of what you just said, it also made me think the back to the soft magic system, because for one, of course, if you have something like a broken magic system, then you need to foreshadow with before the ending that the brakes like.

Jesper (29m 28s):
So something may be in a minor situation early on to not a novel, we'd get to see the brake in the Magic Systems, so to speak. And it doesn't only just happen at the end because while it does to attention, if it can also come across as if, oh, OK, the author needed a bit more attention. So all of a sudden that spell failed and then never, ever failed before. So that's not good either, but just tracing back to the soft Magic Systems. I use that as well because it maybe just think that it goes with that as well. That if you have a soft metrics system where spells can, well, you just make it up basically because they can do whatever you want to do. But the thing is once the character has cast a spell, you have to remember that they can do it again.

Jesper (30m 13s):
Which means that if you cast a spell in book one and then in books for you that spell, it would actually have resolve the situation. Well, all of a sudden that character doesn't use that space for the reader will remember, and the reader will be like, Hey, Hey, to wait a minute, why didn't he just cast a spell? He used in book one, it would have fixed the whole thing. So be careful, it just, you need to keep track of this stuff. Then if you have like a, a, a soft magic system that what, what it spells have you actually used, and if they are applicable again, to resolve the latest situation that later book, lots of good only speaks to the fact that he, the characters should be using it again. It's a really good point. It is just because you have a loose are a soft magic system.

Autumn (30m 54s):
That doesn't mean that you don't have to pay attention to how the magic works or how you end up using it. And you're writing indeed. But that was a side track letting me get back to the fourth rule of magic, number four already, and number for you moving quickly here, what are the limitations of magic? Ooh, excellent. And this fourth rule of magic is actually mostly intended for you as a writer because most readers will probably never notice that it's here, but that doesn't matter what the story will become better. And that is the part that readers will and should notice because when our fourth rule of magic reads limitations, I'm not really talking about the costs of using magic.

Jesper (31m 41s):
Okay. You know, like you needing setting certain ingredients or something like that. So that that's not what I'm talking about. Limitations just means what magic cannot do. Okay. So that's a very important to know that it is a very important part. So that's like, if you're a water elemental, you can't use fire. That's just the way it is. That works. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just knowing that there is some stuff that the magic cannot do, or maybe it could also just be that a, nobody can ever, if you have, like, let's say you have the soft Magic Systems again, but maybe there was limitations in the sense that nobody can ever cast any sort of teleportation or time-travel spells or something like, you know, you could have certain types of spells or effects that they can not happen ever, no matter what, but those limitations are important.

Jesper (32m 30s):
And as I said, the reader might not notice what they, we'll probably not know that you have decided to teleportation is impossible. Right. But the fact that this never happens, it it's something that you don't have to play with because when you're writing again, you can't use teleportation. That's a resolution for a, a problem because you'd decided that there was this limit. Yes. And of course, bonus points for every author who could then link their limitations too, some sort of logical sense or a logical reason within their worldbuilding. And so if you can create a link there, you're going to get bonus points. Alright. I like that. I do know they're keeping track of their points, but that is a good point to make it, you know, is inherent to the world to that.

Autumn (33m 16s):
Yeah. It, so that the two are tied that you have this magic system that comes from the world and can not go beyond a certain reason because of something you've already created in the world. That is, that is cool. World-building that is definitely a masterful. Yeah, it is. Then it also shows the reader that you know, that there was a reason for this worldbuilding element actually had a consequence over here in the magic system. And so on. What's a, yes. It just apps and so much step to the world. Okay. Fifth role of magic almost a year. No. Yeah, we are.

Autumn (33m 56s):
We're moving right along. Yeah.

Jesper (33m 59s):
The fifth rule of magic is something we just touched upon actually. It's what the costs of magic. Oh cost. So this is like cost energy or is this, where are, you would say ingredients? It, you know, you are, I have to sacrifice something or a burns and herbal something or you just makes you tired. Is that, what do you mean by that? It could be, yeah. I mean, cost to import now on one hand, because avid readers of fantasy expect there to be a cost for the use of magic. So it's like a trope within this, your honor, and you need to abide to it. So let, let's give two examples here.

Jesper (34m 41s):
When Frodo uses the one ring siren can sense his presence might and the additional cost it is that the ring also sort of takes control over you. So you, you, you lose yourself to it's way and is power, right? So there was a direct cost of use. There was benefit from using it, but there was a cost every time that you do it, if that makes sense. And the other, I mean, it just kind of mention another example that I'm going to get back to what you set as well. Okay. But in the will of time series, by a Robert Jordan, men go and seen from using too much metric. Oh, that's great. I remember reading. So, and again, there is a cost of using the magic, but as you said, it could also be something less or you could also be that whenever you use magic, you become really, really tired and you have to sleep for example, or you get drained or it could be all kinds of things.

Jesper (35m 33s):
I think that there should be some sort of cost. Shouldn't be that you should not be allowed to run round, just casting 500 spells. And you know, with like, it doesn't matter. Hmm. But I have not read a few where they had very strong limitations, like the elemental magic and the cost was, you know, slower. Like they could cast quite a few spells, but yeah, if it just something big or if a cast too many of them, and you know, if your only a wider elemental and you are in the desert, there's all these over the smell's you, you can cast anyway. So I think sometimes having a strong limitation will allow you to have a looser cost, correct?

Jesper (36m 15s):
Yes. Yeah. Because essentially as well, that to some degree what we did with our Magic Systems as well, the costs of a fairly limited, in a sense that, but the limitations are a huge meaning that M because it's based off of emotions, if you have to pull from your emotions, but if you accidentally start mixing to emotions, so basically its like you have to purify your mind. Like let's say M the dragons is attacking you. I use that on a different podcast where yeah. Do that. Someone's going to it. If they've listened to it, they know how this ends true. But if the dragon is attacking you and you are scared, then you can channel being scared and use dispels that are associated to that emotion.

Jesper (37m 4s):
But if you then all of a sudden, let's say the, the dragon does a swipe with his tail. All of a sudden you didn't expect that. And then you get you a surprise and then you accidentally start challenging surprise as well as being scared at once. That's no good. The, and not in our world. I can engine some place you don't want to be. Well, it was some, you know, it just, all of a sudden you were going to get a random magic effects because the magic system can not handle that. You are mixing emotions. So you have to keep absolutely pure in your mind about what you're channeling and stick to that. And if you start feeling something else, which is pretty difficult not to do when a dragon is coming up to you, you need that the channel.

Autumn (37m 52s):
Yeah. Yeah. Imagine you needed a happiness pill. That's a pretty damn it difficult. It is. But we do have a cost because we do have a backlash of whatever magic you're channeling then kind of washes over you as well. So there is a cost, but it's a smaller cost because the limitations are so like you really, if you break the limitations, you're gonna have a horrible, a horrible experience who knows what was going to happen. And you know, you could turn the dragon in the, to dragons and yay. Oh my God. She is just making it even worse. Oh yes. Yeah. Well, if you start fighting each other and yourself.

Autumn (38m 32s):

Jesper (38m 33s):
Okay. Well that leaves the six rule of magic. All right. Well we're on six already. Right? I want to hear this one. Yeah. Yeah. So the sixth, the role of magic is what are the ramifications of magic? So applying the sixth rule is basically that well when applying it, I think to be honest, you have to limit yourself a bit as well, because at times it could be tempting to like, well, build a different way of how magic impacts society and culture is for every single country and every single species and every single race. And there the entire world, a, you probably don't wanna do that.

Autumn (39m 15s):
Okay. So ramifications are a sort of, how does that fit into the world that culturally like do people to people without magic tolerate magic users or they want to capture them and use them like lucky left for cons of what's going on with the whole world and those who do and do not have magic. Yeah, exactly. What, what, what impact does it have on society? The effect that magic exists I'm and I think this is, I mean, you can have a situation like, well, for example, lets just take Gandel for again, because it's so easy.

Jesper (39m 55s):
A lot of the rings or not at all. Okay. Well now what was that? That the other podcasts we won as well, they said to drink every time we've talked about laundry now and the thing that happened five times and one hour, goodness, that was drinking tea. Yeah. But where it was I going with this? Yeah. So for example, Gandalf, he he's a very revered in the middle earth. 'cause he's a magic user. Right? So in that society, the major that I just respected people, right. You could leave it at some things as simple as that, it doesn't have to be more in terms of ramifications, but it could also be that maybe people don't like people using maths, you maybe there was like a magic police that arrest people who use this magic or something like that.

Jesper (40m 50s):
Or maybe everybody can learn magic. So there is tons and tons of school's that you can, you, you can go back to when you are, you just start learning magic or there are so many ways you can make it a show in your culture and in your environment and in you're setting that magic his part of, of the setting, but just don't go overboard and cram into a million variations. But I think if you pick a few things and work with that, then that's going to get you a quite far. Yes. I think that makes sense. I mean, that's like my epic fantasy with elemental, a magic, anyone who has elemental magic was like for us to join an order, the church of for orders.

Autumn (41m 30s):
So you could even make it a religious, a quasi religious, I mean the magic came from the goddess. So you know, it all kind of fit together. So those are really fun ways to worldbuilding and make the magic fit into the world a little bit better if the limitations are coming from the world, you know, the result of having magic should be part of the world as well. And I think considering all that we've discussed is also worth mentioning how there are some cliche Phil Magic Systems that we have seen way too often. No. So I'm going to mention a few here. All right. This will be fun. I like to, the cliche is I'm going to mention a few ever since we mentioned you will see it, that are right.

Autumn (42m 15s):
I'm not sure where I will ever since we mentioned having a pen name in just writing a completely trope trash fix it, it to sell it so much. To me, it was like this other life now secretly wanted to do this. It, it would actually give you a bit fun, but I think it would be quite silly as well with people there's nothing really silly. So the time you are creating a Magic system for your setting, try to avoid the following for alright. Okay. Okay. Number one is healing based Magic. Not that healing spells there is that there are quite common. There is nothing wrong with that, but when magic becomes more or less like a standing for a hospital and you better stay clear that, and I've been in a bit guilty about that one myself.

Jesper (43m 6s):
So to try to avoid that, if it's not a very funny, when all the time the magic used to just heal, whoever gets hurt and they just continue to not cool. I used to have to set up to the world because I've definitely done this to, but if you don't wanna kill off to many characters to make the costs really high, you can heal someone, but it's a high cost to do it. But yeah, it's, it is one way of avoiding, killing off everyone. If that's something you don't wanna do. Yeah. But then to find better ways of doing that. Yeah. It's good to have a high cost to the 10 and number two is throwing Fireball's and the guilty of that to, but fireballs no, no pleas.

Jesper (43m 53s):
We've seen it a million, but then do something else with fire to you do to, to have them throw in something other than fireballs pleas just once in a while. No, no fireballs hold them. You know that you are prohibited from firewalls from now on a, it never gets breaking. I like breaking the rules. So be careful if that okay, well you're not allowed to do a lot of fireballs and only fireballs just, and I know that you're not gonna do that because you're not going to do the on the board. Okay. Yeah. And that this next one, this one is for you. All of them. So I've, I've been guilty after the first to myself.

Autumn (44m 34s):
Okay. So this one's specifically mine. I've, I've created a specific one for you because I have to, now that I'm guilty off and then I'm feeling bad and then I have to have to have to drag you down with me. All right. If I to pull me down and what is this? A slide elemental magic. I love the elemental magic there. It is seeing so many times whenever you are magic. See, and every time I think he, I tried to do something different when I did mine. I tried to have the powers do of a plus there's five is not for, so I just have five elements. But then you do have to explain that even though that as a culture in this world has five elements.

Autumn (45m 15s):
But yeah, I don't know. I still have no guilt. I adore him elemental magic and I tried to make it a scientific so that it was earth was minerals and you know, dead things and yeah, fire water could purify to, there was so much fun trickling out that precipitates, I don't know. And fire can do light to the, to cast illusions. I'd tried to make it a little fresh. Come on. I feel like you are not re very taking my cliche film. Magic Systems is a very seriously, just a basically saying that all of them is is, is good. It's magic. I have no regrets.

Autumn (45m 56s):
I just put in a magic.

Jesper (45m 57s):
Okay. What about it? My number for, and you probably don't like that one either then. Yeah. This is a guy with Harry Potter that we've just had too many witches and warlocks using once and spells ingredients. So let's take clear of that one. It can, can you just give me one, then I can get you that one actually. Aye. I've never written the story with spelling, ingredients and stuff. And I did love supernatural and the, the, you know, they'd be tracking down all this stuff that they needed for the spells, but I don't know, its, it would be hard to do it another original one. Is it sort of like a authoritarian legends at this point? I've read enough of those at the moment.

Autumn (46m 40s):
That I'm good. Yeah. I don't feel that this was a very good ending because I thought I had such good Clichy for the magic systems. And then your not on board. All I can just feed you. I want to write the cliche pill, magic systems. I'm going to just, you know, I want to start, I want to start this episode. Just not going the way I wanted it. Oh, I'm gonna go read that your pantry on a post on a Kindle Villa and maybe use that to write a cliched Magic Systems and I'll just be having a blast this weekend. Oh we have to be better here. It is. It is not going well. So the next week a autumn should have a very good interview lined up for you if all goes well. So it make sure to tune in it for that.

Narrator (47m 23s):
If you like what you just heard, there's a few things you can do to SUPPORT THE AM WRITING FANTASY PODCAST. Please tell a fellow about the show and visit us at Apple podcast and leave a rating and review. You can also join Autumn and Jesper on Fantasy. For as little as a dollar a month, you'll get awesome rewards and keep The Am Writing Fantasy Podcast going. Stay safe out there and see you next Monday.

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