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May 16, 2023
She Deserves Better II: Modesty Messages
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
Is it true that men are visual in a way that women will never understand? Or that boys can’t help but lust if a girl is dressed like she’s inciting it?
In this edition of The Roys Report, we continue a two-part discussion with Sheila Wray Gregoire on toxic teachings on sex and womanhood within the evangelical church.
You just heard two doozies. But there are more, like:
* A girl has a responsibility not to be a stumbling block to the boys around her by what she wears, and
* Girls who dress immodestly are worse than girls who dress modestly
If you’ve grown up in the church, you’ve probably heard these teachings. But are they true? And what kind of outcomes do these teachings produce?
Sheila answers those questions, drawing from a survey her team conducted involving more than 7,000 women. She also shares what one thing our daughters most need to hear if they’re going to grow up healthy in the church. Sheila Wray Gregoire
Sheila Wray Gregoire is an author, podcaster, and researcher into evangelicalism and sex. The founder of BareMarriage.com, together with her team she has surveyed over 32,000 people for her books The Great Sex Rescue and She Deserves Better. Her goal is to change the evangelical conversation about sex to be healthy, evidence-based, and rooted in Christ. She lives in Ontario, Canada, with her husband. They have two adult daughters and two grandbabies. Show Transcript
SPEAKERS SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE, JULIE ROYS
JULIE ROYS Is it true that men are visual in a way women will never understand—or that boys can’t help but lust if a girl is dressed like she’s inciting it? Welcome to The Roys Report—a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And in today’s podcast, I continue my two-part discussion with Sheila Wray Gregoire on toxic teachings on sex and womanhood within the evangelical church. And you just heard two doozies. But there are more, like: A girl has a responsibility not to be a stumbling block to the boys around her by what she wears, and Girls who dress immodestly are worse than girls who dress modestly. If you’ve grown up in the church, you’ve probably heard these teachings. But are they true? And, what kind of outcomes do these teachings produce? Sheila will answer those questions, drawing from a survey her team conducted involving 7,000 women. She’ll also share what one thing our daughters most need to hear if they’re going to grow up healthy in the church. We’ll get into our conversation in just a minute, but first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast—Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. Judson University is a top ranked Christian University providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Plus, the school offers more than 60 majors great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JJUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. We now return to part two of my conversation with popular marriage blogger Sheila Wray Gregoire about her book, She Deserves Better. We pick up our conversation with talk about the purity culture and modesty.
JULIE ROYS Obviously, there’s been a lot of pushback on purity culture. In fact, you mentioned in your book about Matthew West, when he had that song come out about Modest is Hottest. And I know he said it was satire. And maybe it was kind of tongue in cheek, but at the same time, it’s sort of double down on some of these purity messages that are so, so damaging. I mentioned that I read this book, at least portions of it, with my daughter who’s 21. She really resonated, especially with the discussion on modesty, I think, because there’s just been so much trauma that she’s experienced, that I think a lot of girls experience. And yet I think, you know, as parents, we’re like, oh, jeez,, what do we do with this? I mean, it is really, really difficult. But talk about some of these modesty messages, how they’re communicated, and what is communicating to our daughters, how are they internalizing these things?
SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE So, we wanted to really flesh this one out, because we knew this was going to be a big one. So, we asked about four different iterations of the modesty message, when the girls had believed. S we didn’t just say, Did you think you had to be dressed modestly? We asked it in four different ways. So, we asked girls if they believed boys are visual in a way the girls will never understand. Boys can’t help but lust if a girl is dressed like she’s trying to incite it. A girl has a responsibility not to be a stumbling block to the boys around her by what she wears. And girls who dress immodestly are worse than girls who dress modestly, and we let people decide what worse meant. So that was up to the survey taker. All of those messages are horrible. They all have terrible outcomes. But I’ll tell you the two with the worst outcomes: is the two about boys about boys natures. When girls believe that boys are visual in a way that girls will never understand, and boys can’t help but lust, when you take those girls and look at them long term, they are 52% more likely to have a sexual pain disorder called vaginismus as an adult. And vaginismus is largely a condition of evangelicals. It’s when the muscles in the vaginal wall contract so that sex penetration becomes very painful, if not impossible. A lot of women can’t insert tampons without pain. It’s really debilitating. And we found an incidence rate of around 23%, which is at least two to two and a half times the rate of the general population. If you talk to any pelvic floor physiotherapist, they will tell you most of my patients are evangelicals. And so, there is something about our teaching that is actually hurting women’s bodies. And in our first book, our first big book, The Great Sex Rescue, what we found is that obligation is really highly correlated with vaginismus. So, when you tell a woman you’re obligated to give your husband sex if he wants it, her chance of experiencing sexual pain increases to almost the same statistical amount as if she had been abused. So, women’s bodies interpret obligation as trauma.
JULIE ROYS It is abuse, isn’t it? It’s essentially psychologically abusing them so that they’re conditioned to a certain behavior. I mean, it’s really, really damaging. And yet harkening back to my Moody Radio days since we’re talking about this, I know on Moody Radio, when we would talk about this issue, so many people will call in and quote Scripture about the woman needing to please the man. I mean, it’s just, it is mind blowing to me.
SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE Yeah, it really is. So, you know, the obligation is dramatic. But we also found that modesty is dramatic. And especially not all of it is all of the modesty messages results in the higher rates of sexual pain, but especially the ones about boys. Because what those messages tell you is that you can never be safe. You live in a world where boys will always objectify you, where boys and men will only ever see you as sexual objects, all your dreams of intimacy, they’re just pipe dreams, and you’re just never safe. And this is what we’ve told women and girls, so they’re 52% more likely to have sexual pain, they’re 68% more likely to marry an abuser. Interestingly too, believing the modesty message means you’re more likely as well to be assaulted as a teenager and more likely to be in churches where other people around you are assaulted. Because churches that teach…
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May 10, 2023
She Deserves Better
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
Is the church conditioning women to think less of themselves? And do the most common teachings girls hear in youth group make them more likely to marry an abuser? Less likely to understand consent? And more likely to blame themselves if they’re assaulted?
In this edition of The Roys Report, we’ll explore these topics with Sheila Wray Gregoire, author of a fantastic book exposing toxic church teachings on sex and women titled She Deserves Better.
Sheila and her team surveyed more than 7,000 women for this book. And what they found was truly eye-opening—and concerning.
They found, for example, that the emphasis on sexual purity can backfire. Instead of helping girls make good choices, it can actually shame them and then prime them for abuse. Similarly, much of the teaching surrounding modesty can lead to low self-esteem and body image issues in girls.
In this podcast, Sheila breaks down these toxic teachings. And we discuss how to really protect our daughters, so that they can experience healthy relationships—with men, with themselves, and with the church. Sheila Wray Gregoire
Sheila Wray Gregoire is an author, podcaster, and researcher into evangelicalism and sex. The founder of BareMarriage.com, together with her team she has surveyed over 32,000 people for her books The Great Sex Rescue and She Deserves Better. Her goal is to change the evangelical conversation about sex to be healthy, evidence-based, and rooted in Christ. She lives in Ontario, Canada, with her husband. They have two adult daughters and two grandbabies. Show Transcript
SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE
JULIE ROYS 00:04 Is the church conditioning women to think less of themselves and do the most common teachings girls here and youth group make them more likely to marry an abuser, less likely to understand consent and more likely to blame themselves if they are assaulted? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And today I’m going to be speaking with Sheila Gregoire, author of a fantastic book exposing toxic church teachings on sex and women called She Deserves Better. Sheila and her team surveyed more than 7000 women for this book, and what they found was truly eye opening and concerning. They found, for example, that the emphasis on sexual purity can backfire. Instead of helping girls make good choices, it can actually shame them and prime them for abuse. Similarly, much of the teaching surrounding modesty can cause low self-esteem and body image issues. In this podcast, I’ll explore these toxic teachings with Sheila, and we’ll discuss how to really protect our daughters so that they can experience healthy relationships with men with themselves and with the church.
I’m so excited to explore this topic with Sheila. But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Judson University, and Marquardt of Barrington. Judson University is a top ranked Christian University providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Plus, the school offers more than 60 majors great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JJUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Well again, joining me is Sheila Gregoire, founder of BEARMARRIAGE.COM, the largest single blogger marriage blog. She’s also an award-winning author of nine books, including The Good Girls Guide to Great Sex and her latest, She Deserves Better. Sheila is passionate about changing the evangelical conversation about sex and marriage to line up with kingdom principles, and she’s passionate about calling out abuse and making church a safe place which makes her a kindred spirit. So, Sheila, welcome and I’m just so excited to talk to you about this book. It’s a fantastic resource.
SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE 02:39 Thank you, my friend, it’s good to join you again.
JULIE ROYS 02:41 And again, being you’ve been on my podcast before but before I recorded this podcast with you, I went back and listened, and I’d forgotten all about this. But you and I were on Moody Radio together back when I did my show, UP for Debate, talking about of all things, modesty.
SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE 02:58 I know. It’s funny that things come full circle.
JULIE ROYS 03:03 They do and I think both of us if we were to record that today would probably be in a little different place. So, a lot has happened in the past five or six years. And I think that’s a lot of what we’re going to be talking about, the evolution of things within the evangelical church, a lot has changed. But unfortunately, a lot has stayed the same as well. And so really looking forward to diving into that. Before we go any further though, I also want to mention that I have an exciting announcement that you will be coming to The Restore Conference on October 13 and 14th. So, so excited about that and about having you join us. So, thanks for agreeing to do that. I’m just thrilled that you’re gonna be there.
SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE 03:41 Well, I’m just so excited to meet people in real life. You know, you feel like you type into your keyboard all the time. And I’m so yeah, I’m so jazzed to see everybody.
JULIE ROYS 03:49 Yeah, and for those of you who don’t know what Restore is, it’s a two-day conference for folks that have experienced church hurt or those who are allies of these folks who have experienced church hurt or church leaders, especially we would love to see church leaders come. I know at the past few conferences, that’s been an area that’s been growing people coming saying we want to know how to minister to people who have been through these sorts of church hurt experiences, and some of the other folks coming, Wade Mullen Mary Demuth, Lori Ann Thompson, who I know is your fellow Canadian, there in the great white north. So really excited about that. If you want more information, just go to RESTORE2023.COM.
But Sheila, to get to your book., She Deserves Better. I just finished reading it last night. It was outstanding. And what was really kind of fun is that my daughter, my 21-year-old is home and so I got to read portions to her, and she was like, man, I want to read this book this is an outstanding book. So, you got the thumbs up from my daughter as well.
SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE 04:55 Oh, that’s great to hear.
JULIE ROYS 04:57 Yeah, it was really cool. And I know that we’re going to have a lot of conversations around this book. And actually, after each chapter, you have discussion questions that moms and daughters can have these conversations, which, what a great resource. I mean, I think this is going to be so helpful for moms and daughters to engage over these topics.
SHEILA WRAY GREGOIRE 05:16 That was really our prayer. We have about 1000 people in our launch team, which has been crazy. And a lot of them are saying, I’m either reading it so that I can talk to my daughter better, or I’m reading it to reparent little 15-year-old me. Yeah, cuz it’s all this stuff I should have heard, but I didn’t.
JULIE ROYS 05:31 Yeah, yeah. Well, I love the premise of your book that women deserve better, especially women within the evangelical church. And I have to say, it’s just been sad to see in so much of my reporting that women in the church are not believed, a lot of the time, they’re silenced. They’re gaslit, they’re fed lies about who they are, and about their worth. And so, I see that changing, and the culture is changing. I think we’re just on the cusp of that change. But I think…
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Apr 26, 2023
JESUS v. Evangelicals, Part II: The Megachurch
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
American evangelicals love megachurches. Today, there are about 1,750 megachurches in the U.S. and 65% of them are evangelical in their theology. But are these megachurches truly helping the evangelical movement—or are they destroying it?
In this edition of The Roys Report, Julies continues a discussion of Jesus vs. Evangelicals with Dr. Constantine Campbell, author of the book by that name. And in this second part, Dr. Campbell offers a scathing, yet necessary critique of the modern megachurch movement.
Many see these huge megachurches—with big buildings, large congregations, and massive budgets—as success stories. But when evaluated by the standard of making mature disciples of Jesus Christ, these megachurches fall woefully short.
Dr. Campbell and Julie also look at evangelicalism’s so-called “lunatic fringe”—from prosperity preachers to proponents of Christian nationalism. At one point, these agenda-driven grifters would not have been accepted by the evangelical community. But increasingly, these leaders are becoming mainstream despite their heretical gospels. Dr. Constantine Campbell
Dr. Constantine Campbell is Professor and Associate Research Director at Sydney College of Divinity. He is a New Testament scholar, jazz musician, and the author of several books, including Jesus v. Evangelicals: A Biblical Critique of a Wayward Movement. Dr. Campbell also teaches jazz performance at The Australian National University. Show Transcript
SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, DR. CONSTANTINE CAMPBELL
JULIE ROYS 00:06
American evangelicals love mega churches. Today there are about 1750 mega churches in the United States, and 65% of them are evangelical in their theology. But are these mega churches truly helping the evangelical movement? Or, as my guest today suggests, are they destroying it?
Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And this is part two of my podcast on Jesus versus Evangelicals with Dr. Constantine Campbell, author of the book by that name. And if you miss part one, I encourage you to go back and listen to that now. In it we discussed why so many things evangelicalism is known for today, like seeking political power and judging sinners, are the exact opposite of what Jesus modeled. And in part two, Dr. Campbell critiques the mega church movement. Many see these huge mega churches with big buildings, large congregations, and massive budgets as success stories, but using the metric of making disciples, these mega churches fall woefully short. We’ll also look at evangelicalism’s so called lunatic fringe, the prosperity preachers, and proponents of Christian nationalism that at one point would not have been accepted by the evangelical community. But increasingly, these leaders are going mainstream despite their heretical gospels.
We’ll get back to my interview with Dr. Campbell in just a minute. But first, I’d like to thank two sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. Judson University is a top ranked Christian University providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Plus the school offers more than 60 majors great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.com.
Well, again joining me to discuss evangelicalism, Jesus and mega churches is Dr. Constantine Campbell, a Professor and Associate Research Director at Sydney College of divinity in Sydney, Australia. We pick up our conversation with a topic that’s become a regular focus of our investigations at The Roys Report, American mega churches.
Chapter seven in your book addresses mega churches. And of course, this is where I have spent so much of the past several years. And you do cite a lot of the work that we’ve published and based on them and other data, you explain why these mega churches and you really don’t mince words. I mean, you really do say are destroying (that’s right) evangelicalism. And I’d like to just walk through some of the information that you present because I think it’s so powerful. Let’s start with who goes to a mega church. Willow Creek, which I went to Willow Creek many, many years ago. But they argued and this was one of the reasons I was excited about it was this whole unchurched Harry and Mary because no unbeliever would get saved in my church I grew up in. They might get saved through the believers that sit in the pews, through their personal relationships, but nobody would get saved through coming to church. I mean, it just, it didn’t happen, right? So, this idea of reaching the lost through this incredible whiz bang kind of service. I did see a boss of mine, who we invited came to church, but it was in the context of spiritual conversations we were having. And then he became a believer. And actually, we saw chain reaction, a whole bunch of people became believers through what God was doing with his little sales team, you know. But by and large is the research showing that that’s who’s coming to our mega churches primarily are unbelievers?
* CONSTANTINE CAMPBELL 04:13
Yeah, I think part of the sort of profile of mega churches is that they’re extremely good at reaching unchurched people, but the statistics don’t really back that up. They’re slightly better than the average church, but you’re talking about 1% better. And the reality is that most mega churches, most of their numbers come from other churches. And that’s the anecdotal experience of many other pastors of small churches and many Christians that they just well as I put it, suck other churches dry and that’s part of the problem for them. So, I think if you remove that, well, they’re very good at reaching unchurched Harry. If you remove that because it’s not actually statistically true, then what are they good for?
JULIE ROYS 05:01
And that is the question.
* CONSTANTINE CAMPBELL 05:04
Yeah. And unfortunately, really, I think that they are again, first I want to say there are many mega churches where the pastors are godly servants, and they stay out of the news, and they do love their people. And many people do experience growth within those churches and there are many positive ministries that mega churches are able to do that smaller churches that are not able to do. Willow Creek, for example, has ministry to incarcerated people and things like that. But I argue in the book that the model of the mega church is unhealthy both for attendees, but also for the pastors. And it’s really based around celebrity. And it’s based around consumerism. And it’s based around this false notion that bigger is better. And that showy, like showy worship music and dazzling lights., and theatrical performance, is what church should be about. I’m not against great music, I’m a professional musician. You know, I’m not against theatrical performance, I love going to the movies, and I love stage plays and that sort of stuff. And I’m also not opposed to those things having a role in church. But it seems to me that the whole mega church model puts confidence in those things, to do the heavy lifting. But if you read the New Testament, the heavy lifting is done by proclaiming the Word of God, by the power of the Spirit, and through loving one another.
And this is really important. In the book, I draw on Ephesians chapter four, where Paul talks about this model of the church where it’s building itself up in love. And it’s an idea…
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Apr 19, 2023
JESUS v. Evangelicals
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
Evangelicalism was once known for its theological convictions, like the centrality of Scripture and the need for personal conversion. Now, it’s known for Trumpian politics, anti-LGBTQ rhetoric, megachurch scandals, and grift.
Clearly, it’s a movement in crisis. And according to New Testament scholar Constantine Campbell, if the movement doesn’t correct course, it’s in danger of becoming shipwrecked.
In this latest podcast, Dr. Campbell, author of Jesus v. Evangelicals: A Biblical Critique of a Wayward Movement, critiques evangelicalism using Scripture as his standard. And he shows that it’s not Christianity that’s failed in this present age. Instead, it’s evangelicalism that’s failed in recent times to behave Christianly.
For example, Jesus taught his disciples to win the culture by making disciples. But today, evangelicals are trying to transform culture by gaining political power.
Similarly, evangelicals today rail against some sins, like sexual immorality or perversion. But we wink at equally, or even more pernicious sins, like pride and arrogance.
Those grieved by what we’re seeing in the church will surely be encouraged by this podcast. In discussing what’s wrong in the church, Dr. Campbell also describes what it would look like to do things right and to truly follow the example of Jesus. Dr. Constantine Campbell
Dr. Constantine Campbell is Professor and Associate Research Director at Sydney College of Divinity. He is a New Testament scholar, jazz musician, and the author of several books, including Jesus v. Evangelicals: A Biblical Critique of a Wayward Movement. Dr. Campbell also teaches jazz performance at The Australian National University. Show Transcript
SPEAKERS
JULIE ROYS, DR. CONSTANTINE CAMPBELL
JULIE ROYS 00:04
For many evangelicals, evangelicalism and Jesus are one in the same. But according to New Testament scholar, Dr. Constantine Campbell, that’s no longer the case. The movement is in disarray and unless evangelicals correct course, they’re in danger of shipwrecking their faith. Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And today Dr. Constantine Campbell, author of Jesus versus Evangelicalism, A Biblical Critique of a Wayward Movement, joins me, and if you’re a regular listener to this podcast, it’s not going to come as any surprise that evangelicalism is in trouble. But what Dr. Campbell does so well is explain why what’s being modeled in evangelicalism is antithetical to the gospel. To quote G.K. Chesterton, “It’s not that the Christian ideal has been tried and found wanting. It’s been found difficult and left untried”. For example, Jesus taught His disciples to win the culture by making disciples. But today, many evangelicals are trying to change the culture by gaining political power. Similarly, evangelicals today railed against some sins like sexual immorality, or perversion, but many wink at equally or even more pernicious sins, like pride and arrogance.
Friends, if you’re aggrieved by what you’re seeing in the church, I believe this podcast is going to encourage you. Yes, we’re going to be talking about what’s wrong in the church, but in doing so, Dr. Campbell describes what it would look like to do things right and to truly follow the example of Jesus. I’m so excited to share this podcast with you.
But first, I’d like to thank two of our sponsors, Accord Analytics and Marquardt of Barrington. In your ministry, your business, your reputation is your most valuable asset. But what do you do when you suspect misconduct? Hopefully, you do the opposite of many of the organizations I report on. Instead of covering up wrongdoing, you investigate it, and Accord Analytics can help. In just 72 hours, their team of experts can scour emails, call logs and other records to produce usable evidence. They also can analyze your organization to identify specific threats and to suggest best practices. For a free consultation go to ACCORDANALYTICS.COM. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM. Well again, joining me is Dr. Constantine Campbell, a New Testament scholar, author, and documentary host. Dr. Campbell is a Professor and Associate Research Director at Sydney College of Divinity in Sydney, Australia. He’s also the author of several books, including his latest, Jesus versus Evangelicalism, A Biblical Critique of a Wayward Movement. So, Dr. Campbell, welcome, and thanks so much for writing this book and for taking the time to join me today.
* CONSTANTINE CAMPBELL 03:08
Oh, thanks so much for having me. Julie. It’s great to meet you and speak with you today.
JULIE ROYS 03:12
Well, I feel the same way. And I’m honored that you referred to The Roys Report several times in this book, it’s always just super, super encouraging when we see the impact of the work that we do, not just here in the US, but in Australia, too.
* CONSTANTINE CAMPBELL 03:28
It’s so important. I mean, I can’t think of another ministry really like it. Just so important to be keeping churches and church leaders accountable. And not in a sort of policing kind of way, but in a way that has genuine concern for the church. I just think it’s so important, and I’m really thankful for the work you’re doing.
JULIE ROYS 03:47
Well, thank you for saying that. It is a joy to speak with you. To get to our topic, I don’t think it probably comes as a surprise to anybody that’s followed my work that evangelicalism is, as you say, a wayward movement, a movement that’s lost its moorings. Yet, It’s sad to speak of it that way because I know historically and for me and my family, which goes back many generations of following the Lord, evangelicalism has been known as a movement that really is about vibrant faith in Jesus Christ. And so, I think that’s hard to come to grips with. But I think any evangelical who really loves Jesus has to admit that that’s what it at least is becoming, or in fact, has become, and you even call it perhaps a pseudo-Christianity. What led you to the conclusion that we are in this state?
* CONSTANTINE CAMPBELL 04:41
Well, you know, as you say, it’s difficult for anyone who has really identified with the movement that we call evangelicalism. It’s difficult to sort of stand back and critique it. For a long time, you know, I became a Christian as an adult in an evangelical church and I was trained in an evangelical seminary, and my entire academic career has been teaching in evangelical institutions. And that label that badge means so much to the people who wear it, who use it. And nevertheless, as you say, these are very troubling times for evangelicalism. And what tends to happen here in Australia is we say, oh we’re not that sort of evangelical. We say, well, they’re the Americans, or they’re this sort of evangelical, we’re another sort. But the reality is, that distinction really doesn’t mean very much to anyone who’s not inside the movement. And even within the movement. A lot of people don’t really understand what the label is supposed to mean, you know. A lot of people think it just means evangelistic, rather than a set of theological convictions or a way of being a Christian. But I sort of came to this point of critique, I touched on it briefly in the book, but kind of as a quiet critic over the years, since I’m a biblical scholar in New Testament in particular, there’s so many opportunities when we’re looking at the text of Scripture with students to be thinking about, well, there’s hear what the Bib…
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Apr 6, 2023
Why Do People Like Harsh Leaders?
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
Why are Christians drawn to abusive celebrity pastors? And why do appeals to love and serve often gain less traction than condemnation and harshness?
In this edition of The Roys Report, Julie explores explore these questions with Dr. Raymond Chiu, a business professor at Redeemer University in Ontario, Canada.
Along with two colleagues, Dr. Chiu has done extensive research on why we like our leaders to be rough and tyrannical. What they found is that the appeal of tyrants is not an aberration, but a phenomenon tied to how our minds work.
Because these leaders, like megachurch pastors, are distant and unknown, we don’t really know them. And in the absence of any real knowledge of who they are, we look for certain defining characteristics that we associate with leadership.
But what’s scary is that those characteristics—or “defining features”—are extremely toxic. They’re features like domineering, pushy, manipulative, conceited and loud.
In this podcast, Dr. Chiu will unpack why we do this—and how we can combat this tendency. He also addresses how this dynamic plays out in church contexts and what we can do about it.
Tune in to our fascinating discussion, which has practical application for your life and ministry. Raymond B. Chiu
Raymond B. Chiu teaches leadership and nonprofit management at Redeemer University, a Canadian institution rooted in a Christian Reformed tradition for over 40 years. Together with Agata Mirowska and Rick D. Hackett, their leadership research has been featured in Forbes, Psychology Today, and other national media. As a business professor with training in theology and ethics, he takes special interest in understanding the expression of faith in the public sphere, especially among workplaces, religious refugees, and charities. Raymond celebrates a 25-year marriage to his wife Lesley and enjoys walking alongside his three young-adult children. Show Transcript
SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, RAYMOND CHIU, PhD
JULIE ROYS 00:05 Why are Christians drawn to abusive celebrity pastors? And why do appeals to love and serve often gain less traction than condemnation and harshness? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And today I’m going to explore these questions with Dr. Raymond Chiu, a business professor at Redeemer University in Ontario, Canada. Along with two colleagues, Dr. Chiu has done extensive research on why we like our leaders to be rough and tyrannical. What they found is that the appeal of tyrants is not an aberration, but it’s a phenomenon tied to how our minds work. Because these leaders like megachurch pastors are distant, we don’t really know them. And in the absence of any real knowledge of who they are, we look for certain defining characteristics that we associate with leadership. But what’s scary is that those characteristics or defining features are extremely toxic. They’re features like domineering, pushy, manipulative, conceited and loud. In this podcast, Dr. Chiu will unpack why we do this, and how we can combat this destructive tendency. He also addresses how this dynamic plays out in church context and what we can do about it. I’m so excited to delve into this fascinating topic with Dr. Chiu.
But first, I’d like to thank the sponsors of this podcast, Accord Analytics and Marquardt of Barrington. In your ministry or business your reputation is your most valuable asset. But what do you do when you suspect misconduct? Hopefully you do the opposite of many of the organizations I report on. Instead of covering up wrongdoing, you investigate it, and Accord Analytics can help. In just 72 hours, their team of experts can scour emails, call logs and other records to produce usable evidence. They also can analyze your organization to identify specific threats and to suggest best practices. For free consultation go to ACCORDANALYTICS.COM. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM.
Well again joining me is Dr. Raymond Chiu, a business professor with training in theology and ethics at Redeemer University in Ontario, Canada. He’s also a leadership researcher whose work with colleagues Agata Mirowska and Rick Hackett has been featured in Forbes, Psychology Today and other national publications. So, Dr. Chiu, welcome. I’m looking so forward to our conversation today.
RAYMOND CHIU, PhD 02:51
I am too and thank you so much for focusing on all of God’s children that are in churches today, especially those who are hurting or neglected in some way and don’t have a voice. So thank you for doing that work and helping me to understand leadership as well.
JULIE ROYS 03:06
Well, and I can tell just in your work, that your heart is for the vulnerable and those in our churches who are hurting, and I’m looking forward to diving into our topic, which again, deals with tyrannical leaders, authoritarian leaders, but I’m really curious, how is it that you got interested in this topic of research and looking into why we tend to prefer some of these leaders? You’re right that there are various terms that are used for that you’ve mentioned tyrannical, authoritarian, domineering, aggressive, they’re all in the same area. And I’ve worked in nonprofit management for a while and being concerned about social ills. Of course, the ethical failure and success of leaders is always an interest given the challenges that we face in our communities and the world today. And as I came out of seminary and into doctoral studies, I discovered that my supervisor and I both had an interest in leadership and ethics. And he invited me on to a team that had just started looking at the relationship between morality or what we call moral foundations and people’s leadership preferences because we want to know if there’s something deeper they’re causing the troubles we’re seeing in the world today. And that led to about a decade of groundbreaking research.
So that brings us to what I think is one of the most maddening topics in our church today, one of these dynamics where we seem to prefer these tyrannical leaders or these authoritarian leaders. You know, we have someone like John MacArthur, who tells Beth Moore to go home, and people cheer him for that, right? We’ve got a Mark Driscoll who’s been shown through all the research and the reporting, definitely a bully type leader. And yet, you know, I was in Phoenix not that long ago, and his parking lots full at his new church, people are going to it’s a mega church. Again, he knows how to grow these. So, what is your research shown as far as why we seem to prefer these kinds of leaders?
RAYMOND CHIU, PhD 03:47
So we did a study of 1147 North American participants, and we look specifically at elements such as fear, such as their deep moral convictions, and try to see how they related to their preference for tyrannical leaders. And it turned out there was a relationship between a person’s fear of a dangerous world and their propensity to adopt conservative or traditional moral values. And those values or morals or intuitions, which is what we call them, are also related to a preference for a domineering leader.
So that would be the impression or the perception that these leaders are truly effective. And so we have this chain reaction that is happening, it’s psychological. It’s not just sort of a feeling in the moment, but it’s something that occurs among individuals and groups. We focus on a tyrannical leader what we call a tyrannical leader, because we’re really focusing on the traits, the fact that these people exhib…
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Mar 14, 2023
‘Jesus Revolution’: The Untold Story
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
Jesus Revolution—a new film recounting the Jesus Movement of the 1970s—has become a box office sensation with Christian moviegoers. But is the movie accurate? And does its focus on megachurch pastor Greg Laurie do justice to this 1970s movement that changed the world?
On this edition of The Roys Report, Christian filmmaker David Di Sabatino, creator of the Emmy-award-nominated documentary, Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher, joins Julie.
If you’ve watched Jesus Revolution, then you know that Lonnie Frisbee played a pivotal role in the Jesus Movement. He was the hippie preacher who helped lead thousands to the Lord and performed mass beach baptisms on the Southern California coast. And, he’s the young man who imparted his vision of reaching lost hippies to Pastor Chuck Smith, who then launched the Calvary Chapel movement.
But there’s also a dark side to Frisbee that the movie didn’t portray. According to Di Sabatino, Frisbee was living a double-life—partying and engaging in gay relationships at night and then preaching the next morning.
Plus, Di Sabatino says the film’s focus on megachurch pastor Greg Laurie is the antithesis of the 1970s Jesus Movement. The focus of this revival movement was Jesus—not celebrity preachers. Plus, Di Sabatino says some of the facts presented in the film are just plain wrong. For example, Laurie, whose memoir the film is based on, misrepresented how his church started, Di Sabatino says.
We sought comment from Laurie on some of these issues, but his secretary said he was not available. However, he has spoken to other media outlets about some issues with the film, and these are included in this podcast.
This is an eye-opening podcast. And though we’ll be discussing some of the issues we had with the film, we’ll also be discussing what’s inspirational and beautiful about it, as well. David Di Sabatino
David Di Sabatino is a documentary filmmaker known for his films Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher, which was nominated for an Emmy Award, Fallen Angel: The Outlaw Larry Norman, and No Place to Call Home. Trained as a historian, Di Sabatino is the compiler of The Jesus People Movement bibliography (Greenwood Press, 1999). Show Transcript
SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, DAVID DI SABATINO JULIE ROYS 00:00 Jesus Revolution—a new movie recounting the Jesus Movement of the 1970s – has become a box office sensation. The movie made $15.5 million dollars in its opening weekend. Now it’s nearing the $40 million mark—and has become a runaway hit with Christian moviegoers. But is the movie accurate? And does its focus on megachurch pastor Greg Laurie do justice to this 1970s movement that changed the world?
Welcome to The Roys Report—a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is David Di Sabatino, a Christian filmmaker and creator of the Emmy-award-winning documentary, Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher. If you’ve watched Jesus Revolution, then you know that Lonnie Frisbee plays a key role in the movie. That’s because Frisbee played a key role in the Jesus Movement. He was the hippie preacher who helped lead thousands to the Lord and performed mass beach baptisms on the Southern California coast. And, he’s the young man who imparted his vision of reaching lost hippies to Pastor Chuck Smith, who then launched the Calvary Chapel movement. But there’s also a dark side to Frisbee that the movie didn’t mention. According to Di Sabatino, Frisbee was living a double-life—partying and engaging in gay relationships at night and then preaching the next morning. Plus, Di Sabatino says the film’s focus on megachurch pastor Greg Laurie is the anti-thesis of the 1970s Jesus Movement. The focus of this revival movement was Jesus—not celebrity preachers.
Plus, David says some of the facts presented in the film are just plain wrong. (Sound byte): “Greg Laurie is lying about how that church started. Now, whether he doesn’t remember whether he just wants to keep Lonnie out of his lineage—Lonnie handed off to him a church of 300 thriving young people. That’s when Greg came in.”
I reached out to Greg Laurie to get comment on the issues David Di Sabatino raises, but his secretary called me back and said Laurie was not available. Greg has spoken to other media outlets, though, and I include his comments to them in this podcast.
This was an eye-opening podcast for me—and I trust it will be for you too. And though we’ll be discussing some of the issues we had with the film, we’ll also be discussing what’s inspirational and beautiful about it, as well. We’ll get to my interview with David in just a moment. But first, I’d like to thank two sponsors of this podcast—Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. Judson University is a top ranked Christian University providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Plus, the school offers more than 60 majors great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.
Well, again, joining me is David Di Sabatino, creator of the Emmy award winning documentary called Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher. David also has produced a documentary on the life of early Christian rocker Larry Norman, and a documentary about a Christian sect in Chicago called Jesus People, USA. So, David, welcome. And thank you so much for joining me.
DAVID DI SABATINO 01:06 Thank you for having me.
JULIE ROYS 01:07 Today, we’re going to be talking about the Jesus revolution and the movie and just the events depicted in it. But before we do that, I’m just curious what got you interested in the whole Jesus movement and this time in the 1970s, when being a Christian was cool and following Jesus became kind of a hippie thing.
DAVID DI SABATINO 01:29 So I grew up in the Italian Pentecostal movement in Toronto, Ontario. As a Pentecostal, there’s talk of revival, there’s talk of these great guys of spiritual power. I started looking around and trying to figure out what a revival was, because, you know, is a revival meeting next Tuesday at 10 o’clock, or was this a larger thing? I started looking, what’s the last revival that we had? Somebody said the Jesus movement. So I started looking at that. I was a Larry Norman fan.
JULIE ROYS 01:59 As was I.
DAVID DI SABATINO 02:00 Yeah, he would talk about it. And then I decided that I wanted to document this because there weren’t really a lot of books on this thing. So, I honed in on Lonnie because his stories as I started to talk to people, it’s like, a prophet was dropped in the middle of 1960s hippiedom in California. The stories are larger than life and it just drew me. So I was attracted to him because of that background, because of the signs and wonders, because of the miracle stories. Lonnie is just this fascinating character. And you’re seeing that now, because he’s the most riveting character in that movie.
JULIE ROYS 02:41 Well, it is interesting because Lonnie Frisbee and I grew up in the church, not in the Pentecostal movement, but in the Evangelical Church. And I mean, to be honest, I didn’t hear very much about Lonnie Frisbee at all. Even Chuck Smith, we were kind of outside the whole Calvary Chapel thing. But that’s someone that I’ve become very familiar with, as I’ve been reporting, because Calvary Chapels keep showing up in different scandals that I’m covering. There seems to be a lot…
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Feb 28, 2023
Understanding & Overcoming Spiritual Abuse, Part II
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
Many times, those who have experienced spiritual abuse are retraumatized when they try to speak about what’s happened. They’re often labeled bitter, disgruntled, and gossips—and once again, wounded by Christians and the church.
In part two of Julie’s podcast with Justin Humphreys, they discuss how to help survivors of church hurt. How can church leaders and members promote their healing? And how can the church—the source of so much pain and trauma for these survivors—become what Jesus intended it to be, a place of safety and healing?
Justin and Julie also examine spiritual leadership. What does authentic, healthy leadership look like? And how does it differ from the toxic forms we so often encounter?
As CEO of Thirtyone:Eight and author of Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse, Justin has profound insights into these questions. And if you missed part one of Julie’s podcast with Justin, exploring the definition and stages of spiritual abuse, be sure to take time and listen now.
It’s our hope and prayer that these podcasts will help equip you to spot and deal with spiritual abuse. Justin Humphreys
Justin Humphreys is CEO of Thirtyone:Eight, an independent Christian safeguarding charity operating across the United Kingdom and internationally. Established in 1977, the charity now supports in excess of 10,000 member organisations to create safer places for all. He is co-author of two recent books Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse: Creating Healthy Christian Cultures (SPCK, 2019) and Just Leadership (SPCK, 2021). He is an Honorary Fellow at the University of Kent (Department of Religious Studies) and a Visiting Lecturer at the University of Chester (School of Psychology). Justin holds an MSc in Child Protection and Strategic Management, a BSc. (Hons) in Social Work Studies and a Diploma in Counselling Psychology & Psychotherapy. He has been a Christian since the age of 11 and is married with three adult children. Show Transcript
SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, JUSTIN HUMPHREYS
JULIE ROYS 00:04 Many times those who have experienced spiritual abuse are re traumatized when they try to speak about what’s happened. They’re often labeled bitter, disgruntled and gossips and once again, wounded by Christians in the church. So how should the church respond to survivors of church hurt? And how can we create cultures in our churches that are safe and healthy?
Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And in part two of my podcast with Justin Humphreys, we tackle these crucially important questions. And if you miss part one of my podcast with Justin, I encourage you to go back and listen to part one. in it we deal with the definition and stages of spiritual abuse. And as the CEO of Thirtyone:eight, the leading Christian safeguarding charity in the UK, Justin has profound insights into this unique form of psychological and emotional abuse. But in this podcast, we look at the aftermath of spiritual abuse. How can survivors heal? And how can the church the source of so much pain and trauma for the survivors become what Jesus intended it to be a place of safety and healing? We also look at spiritual leadership. We’ve discussed some of the ways that it can be abused. But what does authentic spiritual leadership look like?
We’ll get to my interview with Justin in just a moment, but first, I’d like to thank two sponsors of this podcast, Accord Analytics and Marquardt of Barrington. In your ministry or business your reputation is your most valuable asset. But what do you do when you suspect misconduct? Hopefully, you do the opposite of many of the organizations I report on. Instead of covering up wrongdoing, you investigate it, and Accord Analytics can help. In just 72 hours, their team of experts can scour emails, call logs and other records to produce usable evidence. They also can analyze your organization to identify specific threats and to suggest best practices. For free consultation go to ACCORDANALYTICS.COM. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.
Well again joining me for this podcast is Justin Humphreys, CEO of the Christian safeguarding group Thirtyone:eight. Justin also is coauthor of the book Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse. We pick up our conversation, as we’re discussing what happens after you leave a spiritually abusive church.
Part of navigating your way after you’ve left one of these systems is dealing with the emotions. And I think it’s especially difficult in Christian environments, because some of these emotions, we’re told we shouldn’t have, that they’re wrong, that spiritual people shouldn’t feel this way. And of course, they’re always called bitter or disgruntled or, you know, all of these disparaging words. But speak to the person right now who’s feeling these emotions, very powerful, real emotions of anger, and betrayal and mistrust.
JUSTIN HUMPHREYS 03:25 Can I firstly speak to the word you used, gossip? Because so often, an accusation of gossip is made towards the individual who just needs to vocalize what they are seeing and experiencing. To be told that that’s gossip is hugely destructive. I mean, it’s a weapon, it’s a threat that is used. It is a beast in itself. So destructive. So, I guess, I would say, don’t be persuaded to think that sharing your concerns is gossip. Clearly, we’re not necessarily in the early stages, at least if we can discern and intervene at an early stage, that sharing that concern with somebody appropriate is anything other than a good thing to do. And we’re not talking about shouting it from the rooftops. Although sometimes I guess we feel that that’s the only way. But deal with things that are low level if you can. You know, we talk about the hallmarks of healthy culture. And it’s really difficult when the culture is not safe and it is not healthy. The opportunities to deal with things that are low level are really they’re seldom there. So, taking a step back, taking time to reflect on what has been the buildup of low level concern. If we can challenge it early enough to prevent those issues from becoming embedded and entrenched and more deeply rooted, then we may have a slightly easier escape. I don’t say that with any sense of glibness because I’ve seen the damage. I’ve seen the damage. So I guess I’d want to say to your listeners, Julie, I’ve heard you. If your experience is what we have been talking about, I’ve heard you. You need to know that there are people who do understand who do believe, who would want to get alongside you; those people when you’re in the middle of it may not always be the easiest to find. But we’re out there.
JULIE ROYS 05:44 When the victim or the survivor of spiritual abuse, many of them don’t want to ever reenter a church again. I shouldn’t say many, some. I thought it was very interesting, and actually, my last interview with a cult experts said that often survivors of cults, they do return to a church that has a similar theological structure. Because you can’t unbelieve what you believe, you know, and especially when it happens to be rooted in the word of God, and you know it’s true, but it’s been twisted.
So, they come back to church. And often, the churches don’t know what to do with them. Just don’t know what to do with them. Because, and I think we often tend to ostracize them, because their emotions make us feel really uncomfortable. Really, really uncomfortable. I thought you made a great point about the process when someone begins to open up. Speak to that and speak to the person,…
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Feb 23, 2023
Understanding & Overcoming Spiritual Abuse
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
Spiritual abuse has become an increasingly hot topic, as more and more stories of bully pastors and hyper-controlling churches have grabbed headlines. But how does spiritual abuse differ from mere emotional and psychological abuse? And what are its key features and stages?
In this podcast, Justin Humphreys, CEO of Thirtyone:Eight and author of Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse, joins Julie to discuss this important issue.
Thirtyone:Eight is the leading independent Christian safeguarding charity in the UK. And over the past few years, Thirtyone:Eight has conducted numerous high-profile investigations of churches and leaders accused of spiritual abuse.
This includes what some British publications have called the “mother of all abuse stories”—abuse by Jonathan Fletcher and John Smyth. Smyth ran a system of evangelical camps for boys from elite schools throughout England. And Fletcher was vicar of the prominent Emmanuel Church Wimbledon and one of the most influential evangelicals in all of England.
During this in-depth conversation, Justin describes those cases, and how both Smyth and Fletcher twisted Scripture to suit their selfish ends. He then explains how the term spiritual abuse came into being—and how our understanding of it has evolved over the past few decades.
Julie and Justin then explore the stages of spiritual abuse, how to leave spiritually abusive systems, and then how to heal and create safe church cultures with authentic spiritual leadership. Justin Humphreys
Justin Humphreys is CEO of Thirtyone:Eight, an independent Christian safeguarding charity operating across the United Kingdom and internationally. Established in 1977, the charity now supports in excess of 10,000 member organisations to create safer places for all. He is co-author of two recent books Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse: Creating Healthy Christian Cultures (SPCK, 2019) and Just Leadership (SPCK, 2021). He is an Honorary Fellow at the University of Kent (Department of Religious Studies) and a Visiting Lecturer at the University of Chester (School of Psychology). Justin holds an MSc in Child Protection and Strategic Management, a BSc. (Hons) in Social Work Studies and a Diploma in Counselling Psychology & Psychotherapy. He has been a Christian since the age of 11 and is married with three adult children. Show Transcript
SPEAKERS JULIE ROYS, JUSTIN HUMPHREYS
JULIE ROYS 00:04
Spiritual abuse has become an increasingly hot topic as more and more stories of bully pastors and hyper controlling churches have grabbed headlines. But how does spiritual abuse differ from your emotional and psychological abuse? And what are its key features and stages? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Justin Humphreys, CEO of Thirtyone:eight, the leading independent Christian safeguarding charity in the UK. Over the past few years Thirtyone:eight has conducted numerous high-profile investigations of churches and leaders accused of spiritual abuse. These include an investigation of the Crowded House, the Church founded by Steve Timmis. Timmis is the former CEO of Acts 29, who was fired in 2020 for alleged bullying and spiritual abuse. Thirtyone:eight has also investigated what some British publications have called the mother of all abuse stories, abuse by Jonathan Fletcher and John Smyth. Smyth ran a system of evangelical camps for boys from elite schools throughout England. And Fletcher was vicar of the prominent Emanuel Church Wimbledon, and one of the most influential evangelicalisms in all of England.
So, Justin Humphreys is well acquainted with abuse in a church context. And in his book, Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse, Justin explains how the term came into being and how our understanding of spiritual abuse has evolved. He also explores the key features of spiritual abuse and its impact. And he explains how to create safe church cultures with authentic spiritual leadership. I’m so looking forward to my discussion with Justin.
But first, I’d like to thank two sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt of Barrington. Judson University is a top ranked Christian University providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Plus the school offers more than 60 majors great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information, just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of integrity. To check them out just go to BUYACAR123.COM.
Well again, joining me is Justin Humphreys, CEO of the Christian safeguarding group Thirtyone:eight. He’s also an Honorary Fellow at the University of Kent and a visiting lecturer at the University of Chester. And Justin is coauthor of the book, Escaping the Maze of Spiritual Abuse. So Justin, welcome, and thanks so much for joining me.
JUSTIN HUMPHREYS 03:00
Thank you for having me on Julie. It’s great to be here.
JULIE ROYS 03:02
And I am so excited to speak with you because I’ve been following your work and the work of Thirtyone:eight. And you’ve you know, as I referenced in the open, you have been at the center of some of these major investigations involving scandals with Jonathan Fletcher, and John Smyth. And Thirtyone:eight has just done phenomenal work. I know you’re very well respected. But sadly, because we’re in the US most of my listeners, though, certainly not all. But we’re often not aware of what’s going on there in England. So a lot of people probably aren’t familiar with your work aren’t familiar with John Smyth or Jonathan Fletcher, and yet I think what is happening there in the UK mirrors so much of what’s happening here in the US with a lot of abuse, both sexual, physical and spiritual abuse happening and then being covered up. So I would really appreciate it if you could summarize for us, and I know it’s hard to summarize these huge stories, right? But if you would give us just kind of a brief synopsis of what happened with them, and then the impact that it’s had there on the church in England.
JUSTIN HUMPHREYS 04:11
Yeah, thank you, Julie. Firstly, John Smyth was a very high profile, highly influential leader within the Church of England and the wider conservative evangelical tradition of the church, if you like. Now deceased, but John was also a queen’s counsel. So, for those who may not be familiar with that top lawyer, Barrister in this country, prominent, well connected. I mean, connected to the highest levels in society. And he was found to have abused countless men throughout an extensive period of time. He would go through a long period of grooming, and then would befriend, and then emotionally, physically, psychologically, and spiritually abuse those men in the name of Scripture in the name of God. And when he was a risk of being exposed for all of those abusive, horrendously abusive practices, where he would take these young men into the shed at the end of his garden in a country home, he would literally beat them to within an inch of their lives. When he was at risk of being exposed of that he was aided to flee the country. He went to South Africa, and then continued to abuse and the evidence would seem to suggest even kill others whilst out there.
There’s a lessons learned review, as we call it in the UK here that’s underway, that was commissioned by the Church of England. It’s called the Machen Review being undertaken by an individual called Keith Machen. It is now long, long overdue in its reporting. It just goes to show the scale and complexity…
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Jan 19, 2023
Escaping & Healing from Abusive Churches, Part 2
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
After years spent in an abusive church, how do you heal? How do spot a safe pastor—and can you avoid repeating the same mistake?
In this edition of The Roys Report, Pastor Ken Garrett, author of In the House of Friends, returns to describe the process of healing after escaping from an abusive church. It’s the second of a two-part interview with Ken. If you haven’t already, listeners are encouraged to tune in to part one first.
In part two, Ken describes the powerful experience he had when he first divulged to a pastor outside his former community that his previous pastor had sexually abused Ken’s two daughters.
Ken recalls: “He just exploded—not quite out of his chair, but . . . his head snapped back and he became visibly enraged.”
Though surprising, Ken said his new pastor’s reaction was healing.
“I hadn’t let myself experience that (righteous anger). I was so ashamed to be a dad who was out there preaching . . . and look what this wolf was doing to my children.”
But over time, Ken worked through that shame and eventually became an expert on church abuse and healing. In this episode, Ken goes into detail describing how to spot a safe community and a safe pastor. And, he tells of the decades-long legal battle he and others have had, trying to bring his former pastor to justice.
He concludes by discussing what survivors of abuse need most after escaping their abusive communities. If you’re a survivor of an abusive church, or family or friend of a survivor—or maybe you just want to understand spiritual abuse better—this two-part podcast is for you.
This Weeks Guests Dr. Ken Garrett
Dr. Ken Garrett is the pastor of Grace Church, Portland, a diverse, historic downtown church, and author of In the House of Friends: Understanding and Healing from Spiritual Abuse in Christian Churches. Ken has spoken and written for the International Cultic Studies Association, and provides support and encouragement to many survivors of abusive churches, cults, and high-demand groups in the Portland area. He founded the Spiritual Abuse Forum for Education, an informal gathering for mutual encouragement and education that welcomes and supports survivors of religious abuse from all faiths. Show Transcript
SPEAKERS KEN GARRETT, JULIE ROYS
JULIE ROYS 00:04 After a year spent in an abusive church, how do you heal? How do you spot a safe pastor and have you avoid repeating the same mistake? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys. And joining me today is Ken Garrett, author of In the House of Friends: Understanding and Healing from Spiritual Abuse in Christian Churches. And today’s podcast is part two of a two-part series on escaping and healing from an abusive church. If you missed part one, I encourage you to go back now and listen to that podcast first. In it can tell us about the 12 years he spent in a cultic abusive church in the Portland area, and he draws on that experience to describe hallmarks of abuse of churches and their narcissistic pastors. He also describes what survivors of abuse need most after escaping their abusive communities. And in this podcast, Ken describes the powerful experience he had when he first evolved to a pastor outside his former abusive community that his previous pastor had sexually abused Ken’s daughters. Ken describes what a safe community and a safe pastor looks like. And he tells of the decade’s long legal battle he and others have had trying to bring his former pastor to justice. This is such an important discussion and I’m so glad you’ve joined me.
But before we dive in, I’d like to thank two sponsors of this podcast, Accord Analytics and Marquardt of Barrington. In your ministry or business, your reputation is your most valuable asset. But what do you do when you suspect misconduct? Hopefully you do the opposite of many of the organizations I report on. Instead of covering up wrongdoing, you investigate it, and Accord Analytics can help. In just 72 hours, their team of experts can scour emails, call logs and other records to produce usable evidence. They also can analyze your organization to identify specific threats and to suggest best practices. For free consultation go to ACCORDANALYTICS.COM.
Also, if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity, and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt are men of character. To check them out, just go toBUYACAR123.COM.
We now rejoin my interview with Ken Garrett, author of In the House of Friends: Understanding and Healing from Spiritual Abuse in Christian Churches. And we pick up our conversation after Ken explains how hungry survivors of spiritual abuse are for community yet understandably they’re weary and mistrusting especially of churches and Christian leaders. So, Ken decided to do something a bit radical. Rather than expecting survivors to come to church, he rented a room at a pub in his home city of Portland. And rather than inviting just Christians, he opened the meeting up to survivors of abuse from any religious background. That gathering has become what’s known as the Spiritual Abuse Forum for Education, a regular gathering to promote friendship and education for survivors of spiritual abuse. Ken Garrett explains.
KEN GARRETT 03:24 When I started this thing, I thought to myself, I was working on my doctorate and I really wanted to do something, but I thought, good grief, no one’s gonna come to this. But I want to try something, but I don’t want to start a small group that has the feel of a recovery meeting. You know, this bear lightbulb swinging in the in the ceiling while you drink bad coffee and say yuh. I wanted something even less formal. So, I went down the path of a meetup and just come and get to know people. And it’s worked really great. But when I just put that on Facebook, because it was cheap, and a way to advertise it, I had 200 people by the end of the first week. And now it’s like, I don’t know, I think 700 or so. And it has exactly what we had hoped every week. Usually, 15 or so people come into this meeting. And yeah, they grab a piece of pizza and a glass of beer or whatever. And they just hang out. Some of them never talk and they grip their chairs, like it’s a plane going down or something. But others find an opportunity to discuss what they’ve been through.
And so that’s just what we started doing. And I think we’re in our fourth year now for it. And it’s been tremendous. It’s not, I don’t want to oversell it because I’m not a counselor. I don’t offer extended care really. But I have found that just the community, it means a lot to people that has surprised me. I used to just do all the teaching of the principles that I’d learned and Lifton and all of this stuff, great stuff. But we’re at a point now where I introduce a topic, I say a few things about it, and then we kind of throw it out there. And more and more people are, you know, Scientologists, for instance, are wanting to say, wow, that’s what happened to me. Or somebody from a polygamous background is more willing to say, yeah, that’s the bologna that I lived with. So, there’s this strange sharing that is tearing down, what to me was the exclusivity of Christian abuse. We’re not special.
JULIE ROYS 05:50 Well, let’s talk about we’ve talked about the spiritually abusive pastor. Talk about the safe pastor. And I love this quote from your book, where you say over the years, I’ve come to believe that Christians need great pastors more than they need great preachers. The great preachers are the ones that we put on the radio, that we sell the books of, and everything else. And often they are the most abysmal pastors. So, what does a sa…
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Jan 17, 2023
Escaping & Healing from Abusive Churches
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
How do people get sucked into abusive churches? What are the tell-tale signs of an abusive church? And, after leaving one, how can you heal?
In this edition of The Roys Report, Pastor Ken Garrett, author of In the House of Friends, shares key insights on understanding and healing from spiritual abuse in Christian churches.
For 12 years, Ken and his family belonged to a cultic, abusive church in the Portland area. During those years, Ken sacrificed his career, wealth, and relationships to a church he believed had a monopoly on truth. He also later learned that his pastor had been sexually abusing Ken’s two daughters.
As Ken explains in this podcast, his former pastor may have been preaching correct doctrine, but he was a fraud abusing his flock spiritually, financially, and sexually.
Ken’s is a painful story—but it’s also redemptive.
Since leaving his cultic church, Ken and his family have experienced deep healing. He’s also become an expert on abuse in the church. And today, he not only pastors a church in the Portland area, he also leads a group for survivors of spiritual abuse.
In this podcast, Ken shares his profound understanding of abusive churches and how they operate. He also gives practical steps on how to pursue healing, or help someone heal, after spiritual abuse.
If you’re a survivor of an abusive church, or family or friend of a survivor—or maybe you just want to understand spiritual abuse better—this podcast is for you.
This Weeks Guests Dr. Ken Garrett
Dr. Ken Garrett is the pastor of Grace Church, Portland, a diverse, historic downtown church, and author of In the House of Friends: Understanding and Healing from Spiritual Abuse in Christian Churches. Ken has spoken and written for the International Cultic Studies Association, and provides support and encouragement to many survivors of abusive churches, cults, and high-demand groups in the Portland area. He founded the Spiritual Abuse Forum for Education, an informal gathering for mutual encouragement and education that welcomes and supports survivors of religious abuse from all faiths. Show Transcript
SPEAKERS KEN GARRETT, JULIE ROYS
JULIE ROYS 00:04 How do people get sucked into abusive churches? What are the telltale signs of an abusive church? And after leaving one, how can you heal? Welcome to The Roys Report, a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church. I’m Julie Roys and joining me today is Ken Garrett, author of In the House of Friends: Understanding and Healing from Spiritual Abuse in Christian Churches. For 12 years, Ken and his family belong to an abusive cultic church in the Portland area called North Clackamas Bible Community. During those years Ken sacrificed his career his wealth and his relationships to a church he believed had a monopoly on truth, but over time can realize that though his pastor may have been preaching correct doctrine, he was a fraud who was abusing his flock spiritually financially and sexually.
Ken’s is a painful story, but it’s also redemptive. Since leaving his cultic church, Ken has experienced deep healing. He’s also become an expert on abuse in the church. And today, he not only pastors a church in the Portland area, he also leads a group for survivors of spiritual abuse. And if you’re a survivor of church abuse or family or friend of a survivor, or maybe you just want to understand spiritual abuse better, this podcast is for you.
We’ll get to my discussion with Ken in a minute. But first, I’d like to thank two sponsors of this podcast, Judson University and Marquardt Barrington. Judson University is a top ranked Christian University providing a caring community and an excellent college experience. Plus the school offers more than 60 majors great leadership opportunities and strong financial aid. Judson University is shaping lives that shaped the world. For more information just go to JUDSONU.EDU. Also if you’re looking for a quality new or used car, I highly recommend my friends at Marquardt of Barrington. Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty, integrity and transparency. That’s because the owners there Dan and Curt Marquardt, are men of integrity. To check them out, just go to BUYACAR123.COM.
Well again, joining me is Ken Garrett, author of In the House of Friends: Understanding and Healing from Spiritual Abuse in Christian Churches. Ken also is the senior pastor of Grace Church in Portland, Oregon. And he’s the founder of the spiritual abuse forum for education, a regular gathering to promote friendship and education for survivors of spiritual abuse. So Ken, welcome, and thanks so much for joining me.
KEN GARRETT 02:44 Thank you very much. Yeah.
JULIE ROYS 02:46 And before we dive in, I should probably mention that we’re offering your book, In the House of Friends to anyone who makes a donation to The Roys Report in the month of January. This is an outstanding primer on spiritual abuse and really helpful for anyone who’s experienced spiritual abuse or wants to help a survivor of abuse.
So if you’d like to support our work here at The Roys Report and get this outstanding resource, just go to JULIEROYS.COM/DONATE. Or you can TEXT 22525 and the word REPORT.
Well, Ken, I think one of the reasons that your book is so good is that you know about spiritual abuse firsthand. You and your wife spent 12 years in an abusive controlling church in the Portland Oregon area. And you weave that story of your abuse throughout your book, which I think is a really effective way of telling that story. But I’d like to start with your story. How is it that a bright intelligent guy like you ends up in a cultic church like North Clackamas Bible community?
KEN GARRETT 03:55 Right, right. Good question. We were transitioning, I think, in many ways into being adults. And then me, of course, transitioning out of the military. We were somewhat vulnerable, and yet carried with us a very deep, and Sharon likes to say we were deeply pious people. We were very serious about pursuing the Christian life. We loved Keith Greene’s ministry although he had died by then, but the very impacting on us both in terms of our views of our faith and what we wanted. So, we were very impressionable and very vulnerable. We were respected, and we were loved for who we are right away. And we were drawn into intimacies of conversations and self-sharing that probably were not quite appropriate for our stage of membership at this church. But it promised some things that we deeply, deeply wanted. We wanted community, we wanted to raise our kids with other young people having kids and get along and trust each other. So, we were recruited into that through the members of the church that reached out to us.
JULIE ROYS 05:18 And you also describe how you began to change as a person, as you got deeper and deeper into this church. So describe that, how did you begin to change?
KEN GARRETT 05:30 I think I became kind of insufferable, you know? It’s funny because my church was in the neighborhood I was born and raised in, and I live in that neighborhood to this day. And so, my friends, some of whom, we were cradle buddies at our Lutheran Church we went to, they all got cut off by me when I joined my serious church. And I became, I would have described it as, at the time as being maybe a true Christian. But I also might have just said, an evangelical or something like that. But really, I was becoming a narrow-minded fundamentalist. And I was very dogmatic, and I just became a very difficult person to be around if you didn’t agree with me. I alienated a lot of my co-workers, I was a paramedic. And I would, which means you spend much time in the cab of an ambulance with a partner. And you have to trust each other, and you have to get along. And that’s a very important relationship. And I’m so glad that they tolerated me because I drove a few of the…
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Dec 7, 2022
Celebrities for Jesus
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O03fx4PX3Jk
Celebrity culture has invaded the church. Pastors, who should be shepherds serving the flock, have become idols attracting adoring fans and commanding six- and even seven-figure salaries.
What has happened to the church? How did we get here? And what can be done to counter this truly anti-gospel culture?
In this podcast, I explore this pervasive problem with Katelyn Beaty, author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church.
As Katelyn explains, platforms and influence can be used for good. Billy Graham, for example, used his star-power to reach millions for Christ. And thankfully, Billy, unlike so many other Christian celebrities, never succumbed to public scandal or sin.
But he’s almost become the exception. It seems monthly—or even weekly—we hear about another celebrity pastor, or Christian leader, who’s fallen into sin, or revealed as a bully or frau…
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Nov 10, 2022
Holding On to Faith After Spiritual Abuse
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J15p-DfWfjY
How do you hold on to your faith after experiencing abuse in a church? And how can you find Christian community when so many aspects of church trigger painful memories?
In this week’s podcast, Doug and Wendy Duncan join me to discuss their journey into—out of—what they say was an abusive and cultic Christian community.
After being taught God was angry and punitive, they had to heal their image of God—and of themselves. And they needed to relearn Christian community—and figure out how to connect with Christians in a way that didn’t trigger bad memories.
Both Doug and Wendy are contributors to our premium for donors this month—Wounded Faith: Understanding and Healing from Spiritual Abuse. And though their experience may have been extreme, it has many parallels and insights for anyone who has experienced spiritual abuse.
In thoughtful detail, Doug, who’s a professional counselor, explains…
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Nov 3, 2022
Mark Driscoll: The ‘Trap’ & The Truth, Part II
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9GDwRlUn5Q
Is Mark Driscoll a victim of vindictive leaders? Or is he an unrepentant narcissist and liar, who refuses to take responsibility?
In part two of this podcast with former Mars Hill Executive Elder Sutton Turner, we discuss the narrative Mark Driscoll has been crafting for eight years. This is one in which Driscoll claims he’s a victim—that leaders at Mars Hill had set a trap, and Mark left before they could destroy him.
In this podcast, you’ll hear Robert Morris, pastor of Gateway Church in Texas, help shape Driscoll’s narrative early on. Just six days after Driscoll abruptly resigned, Morris platformed Driscoll at a Gateway conference. And he likened those criticizing Driscoll to Christians who shoot their wounded.
You’ll also hear disgraced Hillsong founder Brian Houston do something similar. In an interview played at Hillsong’s 2015 global conference, Houston sympathetically responds as Dr…
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Nov 1, 2022
Mark Driscoll: The ‘Trap’ & The Truth
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6trjiHLh-0c
Since his abrupt resignation from Mars Hill Church in 2014, Mark Driscoll has claimed he was the victim of a vindictive plot. But last week, Driscoll dropped a bombshell. He claimed that Mars Hill leaders were planning to accuse him of adultery if he didn’t resign.
In this week’s podcast, Sutton Turner—one of only three former executive elders at Mars Hill—joins me to set the record straight.
Turner says Driscoll’s claim about the so-called “nuclear option” is pure fiction. Plus, it impugns the character of the men who loved Driscoll and courageously sought to lead him to repentance and restoration.
Divulging new accounts revealing the extent of Driscoll’s bullying and rage, Turner paints a picture of a man who refused accountability and abandoned his congregation. Yet, instead of owning what he did, Driscoll crafted a false narrative that he’s been editing for the past eight years, Tu…
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Oct 20, 2022
Being a Woman of Color in a White Church
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnFRUZwmjZE
What is it like to be a person of color in a predominantly white evangelical church? Does fitting in require someone to change their behavior, appearance, and speech? And if so, what does that say about the church?
In this latest podcast, Julie explores these issues with Jenai Auman. Jenai is a survivor of spiritual abuse in an Acts 29 church. She’s also a certified trauma support specialist and has a unique ministry, writing about healing, hope, and the way forward for survivors of religious trauma.
Jenai also is Filipina American—and spent more than a decade worshiping and serving in a white evangelical church in Texas. She says she has seen how persons of color face discrimination in overt and subtle ways.
Speaking vulnerably and lovingly, Jenai shares what it’s like to live as a person of color in a predominantly white church. And she offers insights into how white Christians can do a better j…
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Sep 27, 2022
Survivor Claims Spiritual Abuse at Coral Ridge Presbyterian, Part 2
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
What do you do when you realize you’ve been abused by your church? Do you appeal to the denomination? Do you speak up publicly to seek justice, even if you suspect the majority won’t listen?
In this second of a two-part podcast, Lori Harding tells what she did in this situation. She recounts returning to her former church—the well-known Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, Florida—and asking the church to right past wrongs. In this podcast, you’ll hear how her church responded. And you’ll hear part of an interview I conducted with current Coral Ridge Senior Pastor Rob Pacienza.
You’ll also hear what happened when Lori asked for help from her denomination, A Covenant Order of Evangelical Presbyterians (ECO). I’ll read an email Lori received from the senior executive with ECO, after she told him details of how a church in his denomination treated her.
Though Lori didn’t get the responses she’d hoped for, she says s…
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Sep 22, 2022
Survivor Claims Spiritual Abuse at Coral Ridge Presbyterian, Part 1
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
What do you do when you’re wrongly fired by a megachurch—and denied any severance unless you sign an NDA? Then, years later, you realize what you experienced at that church was spiritual abuse?
That's what Lori Harding says happened to her at the the famous Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And in this edition of The Roys Report, Harding tells her complete story.
Coral Ridge is the church formerly pastored by Dr. D. James Kennedy. But after Kennedy died in 2007, Tullian Tchvidjian—Billy Graham’s grandson—became the pastor at Coral Ridge. And it was as a part of Tchvidjian’s inner circle that Harding said she was pressured to accept the unacceptable—and to overlook financial irregularities.
When Harding didn’t, she was fired. And because she refused to sign an NDA, she got no severance.
But about a year later, news broke that Tchvidjian had been involved in sexual misconduct with several congregants. The…
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Sep 7, 2022
Untwisting the Scriptures: Wolves, Hypocrisy & Sin Leveling
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp0ljJr38FQ
Is all sin equal? Can you call out wickedness in someone else—or is that judging? And what does it really mean to “err on the side of grace”?
If you’ve heard some of these lines, and perhaps been silenced by them, this latest episode of The Roys Report is for you.
Joining me is Rebecca Davis, author of the Untwisting the Scriptures book series. And in this podcast we discuss her latest book in the series, addressing wolves in the church, hypocrisy, sin leveling, and righteousness.
Honestly, there couldn’t be a better time for this book. With all the abuse and corruption in the church, we need to know what the Bible really says.
So often Scripture is taken out of context. And it’s twisted by people with a vested interest in protecting themselves, or their prized institutions, to silence whistleblowers.
Rebecca does a masterful job of revealing why you, as a child of God, have a right to spe…
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Aug 24, 2022
Embracing Scripture after Religious Trauma
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp0ljJr38FQ
Psalm 23 is a powerful psalm, reminding us that the Lord is our shepherd. Yet for those who have been hurt by their earthly shepherds—their pastors—the Psalm can sound trite or even off-putting. And sadly, this reality often keeps victims of religious trauma from the very Scriptures that can provide healing.
In this episode of The Roys Report—Julie explores this issue with K.J. Ramsey, author of The Lord is My Courage: Stepping Through the Shadows of Fear Toward the Voice of Love.
Though K.J. experienced a loving shepherd growing up, she and her husband later served in a toxic church with a narcissistic and abusive pastor. This experience left K.J. with deep wounds—and an aversion to much of Scripture.
Yet she found a safe place in Psalm 23. And as she began reading and studying the passage, she began hearing the loving voice of Jesus. She also began to realize that some of the things she’…
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Aug 9, 2022
Naghmeh Panahi: Abuse & The Idol of Marriage
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSdvKw8aeqk
In 2016, imprisoned Iranian-American Pastor Saeed Abedini became the focus of a worldwide #SaveSaeed movement. But according to his wife, Naghmeh Abedini, Saeed was a fraud and an abusive husband. Yet because the Christian world idolized marriage and wanted a hero, Naghmeh says leaders suppressed the truth.
Featuring a powerful talk from the recent Restore Conference, in this podcast Naghmeh Panahi addresses the idolatry evident among some evangelical leaders that has led them to cover-up abuse in the church.
For years, Naghmeh didn’t fully recognize Saeed’s abuse and she explains why. She also unveils the ways Christians pervert marriage. Instead of viewing it as an institution God created to protect the family, they use it to protect abusers.
Most notably, Naghmeh says well-known Christian leader and CEO of Samaritan’s Purse, Franklin Graham, repeatedly ignored Naghmeh’s pleas for help. And in…
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Aug 3, 2022
Warren Cole Smith: Avoiding Financial and Governance Disasters
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrLrIUkMsHo
When you give to a church or nonprofit, how do you know your money is being well spent? How do you know if leadership is truly being held accountable?
In this session from the recent Restore Conference, veteran journalist and MinistryWatch president Warren Cole Smith answers these vital questions.
As Warren explains, the evangelical church has been completely incapable of policing itself. In scandal after scandal, elder boards often protect their pastors rather than holding them accountable. And many Christian organizations are so invested in celebrity pastors and megachurches that they look the other way too.
So, how do you know if your church or nonprofit is being governed well and handling its money appropriately? One tool is to follow the work of Christian journalists. Reporting the unvarnished truth, so corruption and abuse can be exposed and dealt with is a major reason The Roys Report and Ministr…
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Jul 27, 2022
Scot McKnight: How to be ‘TOV’ Not Toxic
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6SgkWJ9cmQ&mc_cid=5d513aee59&mc_eid=UNIQID
Narcissism, power through fear, and false narratives. These are some of the qualities of toxic churches. But what about truly good—or, in the Hebrew, “tov”—churches? What do these churches look like? And how do you become one?
In this session from the recent Restore Conference, world-renowned New Testament scholar Scot McKnight unpacks what it means for a Christian community to be truly good.
After seeing multiple churches succumb to abuses of power, sexual abuse, and spiritual abuse, Scot realized the church needs a better blueprint. He described that vision in A Church Called TOV, coauthored with his daughter, Laura Barringer—which this talk expands on.
Scot addresses the celebrity culture rampant in our churches. “The church has one celebrity,” he says. “His name is Jesus. Everyone else is called a servant.”
He develops how empathy counters narcissis…
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Jul 20, 2022
Wade Mullen: The Power of Truth & Sincerity
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-I-w6rPMy5M
How should you respond when a survivor reveals their story? What does he or she need in that moment? And can we avoid common mistakes that compound a survivor’s pain and trauma?
All too often, pastors, Christian leaders, and congregations respond to abuse survivors in the worst way possible. They employ something called DARVO—Denying the abuse, Attacking the truth-tellers, and Reversing the Victim and Offender.
In this insightful and pastoral talk at the Restore Conference, author and survivor advocate, Wade Mullen, explains a better way. Put simply: survivors need people who will listen actively to their stories and respond with truth and sincerity.
It seems common sense—even easy. But as Wade expertly describes, there are often “walls of denial” to overcome, especially if we’re responsible or complicit with the abuse in some way.
Using the simple acronym, SCORE, Wade outlines a godly way…
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Jul 11, 2022
Lina Abujamra: Recovering from Spiritual Trauma
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjPAeY0573g
Does anyone truly recover from spiritual trauma? After being ravaged by the church or a church leader, can a person ever be the same?
Those gut-wrenching questions were recently posed by author and speaker, Lina Abujamra, at the Restore Conference—a session featured on this edition of The Roys Report.
“It’s been 9 years since I survived my spiritual trauma,” she said. “It left me changed. I’m not the same person I used to be.”
But then, with brutal honesty, Lina describes her transformation from ambivalence and hiding—to trusting once again in Jesus. “I know why deconstruction has become so popular,” she admits “Sometimes it hurts too much to try to heal.”
Lina calls us to face the hurt and the pain—and to admit our need for Jesus. In doing so, we don’t become the person we were. But we do become a person with a reconstructed faith, a faith not based on any Christian leader…
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Jun 28, 2022
Diane Langberg: Where is God When There’s Abuse?
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript https://youtu.be/T1FyhUCjnxE
It’s perhaps one of the most painful questions that survivors ask: Where is God when there’s abuse? Or, where was God when I was abused?
In this powerful message from the Restore Conference, internationally recognized trauma expert and psychologist, Dr. Diane Langberg, seeks to answer this difficult question.
But she openly admits, "I don’t know why God allows abuse. He hasn’t told me. And, believe me, I've asked."
She also says: “I have for 50 years seen God’s work . . . and I have learned something of His character.”
Then, Dr. Langberg reminds us that there is no evil we have known that God hasn’t also known. We often think, “But if He loved me, He would not have let it happen.” But Dr. Langberg reminds us that God let horrific abuse happen to His own Son. This Week’s Guest Dr Diane Langberg
Diane Langberg, Ph.D. is globally recognized for her 50 years of clinical work with trauma victims…
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Jun 23, 2022
Paul Coughlin: Bullies in Ministry
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPa0mbgV30M
Bullying is a huge issue in schools and workplaces. But what do you do when your bully is a pastor or leader of a Christian organization? Do you give a gentle word and turn the other cheek? Or, do you stand up and fight?
On this edition of The Roys Report, we’ll hear from Paul Coughlin, a best-selling author and nationally recognized anti-bullying expert, as he speaks at the Restore Conference.
In this eye-opening talk, Paul explains what makes bullies tick—and how to respond if you’re the victim of a bully.
According to Paul, 85-percent of the population are not inclined to bullying. They’re generally nice if you’re nice to them. And if you give a gentle word, they’ll turn from their anger.
But the other 15-percent are malevolent. They’re bullies. And being nice and gracious just makes things worse.
What’s even more alarming: stats show these bullies do the most harm in professions th…
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Jun 15, 2022
Phil Monroe: Trauma and Healing
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://youtu.be/ovjUkR4_RZ8
How do you heal when you’ve been hurt and traumatized by those who profess Christ—when both Christians and church seem incredibly unsafe?
In this episode of The Roys Report featuring a message from the Restore Conference, professional psychologist Dr. Philip Monroe addresses trauma, healing, and barriers to helping others going through the healing process.
Maybe you’ve experienced trauma and you feel stuck. You feel exhausted from trying to answer the “Why?” question. And though you may need human connection, all you want to do is isolate.
Or maybe you’re in a helping position. Your spouse is experiencing truma, or your friend, or someone you’re pastoring or counseling. You want to help, but everything you’ve done seems to backfire.
If any of those describe you, you are going to benefit from Dr. Monroe’s message. He addresses these issues head-on, drawing on his decades of clinical experience and bi…
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Jun 7, 2022
Diane Langberg: Understanding Abuse of Power in the Church
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk9yaABPCEs
Abuse has become epidemic in the church—and so has cover-up. But what causes abuse in the church? And how can we stop it?
In this special episode of The Roys Report, author, psychologist, and trauma expert, Dr. Diane Langberg, answers these questions with uncommon insight and clarity.
In the opening session of Restore 2022, Dr. Langberg explains how God gave people power so they could be living, breathing representations of Him. Yet too often, we misuse this power to exploit the vulnerable. Or, we excuse and cover up others' abuse, believing we need to protect a church or leader for the sake of the kingdom.
It’s a horrific pattern that’s being repeated again and again in the church. And as Dr. Langberg explains, it all begins with deception.
We deceive ourselves, believing our sins aren't consequential and our complicity with sinful systems is excusable. And then we become blinded to the wolves i…
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May 26, 2022
Lori Anne Thompson on Truth, Trauma & Advocacy
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLNRelP28Kg
For years, Ravi Zacharias labeled her a predator and a serial extortionist. And sadly, the world believed him. But now, we know better. Ravi Zacharias was the predator in what was dubbed in 2017 as a “sexting scandal." And Lori Anne Thompson was not just the victim of clergy sexual abuse—but of a worldwide campaign to smear her name.
In this special episode of The Roys Report, you'll hear what was definitely a highlight of the recent Restore 2022 Conference.
Lori Anne Thompson—one of Ravi’s multiple sex abuse victims—vulnerably shares her insights on effective victim advocacy with well-known author and academic Karen Swallow Prior.
There are so many holy moments in this podcast, beginning with Prior's apology for not believing Thompson when Prior first learned of the so-called “sexting scandal.” Likewise, Thompson's insights on truth, trauma, and advocacy—borne out of years of suffering…
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Apr 8, 2022
Should Christian Women Endure Abuse?—A Response
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNHHT8_NZOA
Should a woman endure abuse by an unbelieving spouse like a missionary endures persecution?
Stunningly, this is the advice offered by Dr. John Street, chair of the graduate program of biblical counseling at John MacArthur’s school — The Master’s University and Seminary (TMUS) — and an elder at Grace Community Church (GCC).
Street also suggests that wife's failure to "fulfill" her husband can cause the husband to sexually abuse his children! And he says victims should report their abuse to church leaders first, and to police as a last resort.
This advice from the top counseling teacher at The Master’s is appalling. Yet it's consistent with what our recent exposés have revealed about MacArthur and his institutions.
In this podcast, Julie plays numerous clips by Street, showing his stunning views on abuse and abuse victims.
And joining Julie to discuss Street's views is Dr. Philip Monroe,…
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Mar 31, 2022
Sarah McDugal Analyzes Abuse at John MacArthur’s Church
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKuWzKhnLS8
Why don’t church leaders believe victims when they report abuse? And why is the victim so often gaslit and abused instead of supported?
This episode of The Roys Report presents an in-depth look at abuse recently exposed at John MacArthur’s megachurch in southern California. Survivor advocate and author, Sarah McDugal, joins Julie to unpack MacArthur’s shocking treatment of the wife of a child-abusing husband.
Recently, The Roys Report published two major exposés. The first revealed how MacArthur and Grace Community Church publicly shamed and excommunicated Eileen Gray for not taking her husband—an admitted child abuser—back into her home. A follow-up showed how, even after Gray was convicted, Grace continued to shun Eileen and support her pedophile husband.
Why does this happen? Why do shepherds—charged with protecting the sheep—end up protecting the wolf? And what can we as believers…
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Mar 1, 2022
Victim of Plagiarism by Christine Caine Speaks Out
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://youtu.be/pqGk5a1jJ5k
In 2016, Christian author Carey Scott was the victim of plagiarism by a major celebrity—international speaker and evangelist Christine Caine. Caine reportedly copied entire portions of Scott’s book, forcing Scott to take legal action to settle the issue. Yet for Scott, the negative impact of this event lingers. Meanwhile, Caine, who never apologized, continues to enjoy the spotlight.
On this edition of The Roys Report, Carey Scott shares her painful story, involving not just having her work stolen, but also being persistently bullied online. Scott also reveals details of interactions with Caine and shares the behind-the-scenes circumstances that compelled Scott to settle.
Seeking justice for what Caine did was like David facing Goliath, Scott says. Few people, including Scott’s publisher, were willing to publicly confront a big celebrity like Caine. And rather than seeing Scott as the victim, many people defended…
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Feb 24, 2022
Racial Trauma in the Church
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
Are Black, Hispanic, and other people of color being traumatized in predominantly white, evangelical churches? And if they are, what’s driving it? Racism? Fear? Ignorance? Or, is it something else?
Joining me for this episode of The Roys Report is Kyle Howard, a racial trauma and spiritual trauma counselor. He’s also become somewhat of a lightning rod for calling out what he sees as white supremacy in the church.
Eight years ago, Kyle was a student at The Southern Baptist Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, and training for the pastorate. He also was a lay leader at a prominent, and largely white, evangelical church.
But that all began to change in 2014 when Kyle started speaking out about racial issues following the officer-involved chokehold death of Eric Garner. Suddenly, Kyle says he got notes from fellow seminarians saying, “I thought you were one of us! Why are you talking about this?”
Kyle says he was also accused of the sin of pri…
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Feb 10, 2022
Former ARC Pastor Exposes ‘Unbiblical’ Movement
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
The Association of Related Churches, or ARC, is arguably the biggest church planting organization in North America. It’s also one of the most embattled . . . with scandals involving ARC pastors hitting the news with shocking regularity.
In this episode of The Roys Report podcast, former ARC pastor Jeff Thompson explains why.
In 2012, Jeff says he was enamored with ARC’s model of “launching large”—of starting a church with a big capital investment, top-notch worship team, and professional marketing. But when that effort flopped, Jeff began to question the biblical basis of ARC’s methods.
He says the movement glorifies success as measured in attendance and budgets—but it minimizes sin, especially among its pastors.
ARC also embraces a “Moses” model of ministry, which, as Jeff explains, is extremely problematic. In this model, the pastor is revered as a prophet who receives the church’s vision directly from God. This essentially…
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Jan 19, 2022
What Happened at Bethlehem Baptist Church? Part 2
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
* Documents
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDJgYAzNZMI
Is the turmoil at Bethlehem Baptist Church simply the result of different theological and political convictions? Or, is it due to spiritual abuse and control at the highest levels?
In part two of my podcast on What Happened at Bethlehem Baptist, former members Steve and Janette Takata describe how a Bethlehem elder, Andy Naselli, reportedly disparaged and gossiped about them behind their backs.
But when they confronted Naselli with his sin, he refused to ask for forgiveness, they say. And in exclusive audio shared with The Roys Report, Naselli argues that asking for forgiveness would be "lying to make peace" because the harm he inflicted was unintentional.
The Takatas also share how an elder attacked Steve Takata personally when the couple approached the elder board with what they felt were disqualifying sins by Naselli. The Takatas say the board also effectively threatened them with chur…
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Jan 4, 2022
Best of 2021 Podcasts
* Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJ__nNonBWc
Over the past year, The Roys Report grew exponentially following in-depth investigations on several fronts—from the cultic church Mark Driscoll is running in Arizona, to pressure exerted on Naghmeh Panahi to salvage the #SaveSaeed movement, to inside reports from RZIM and John MacArthur’s ministries.
In this special ‘Best of 2021’ edition of The Roys Report, you’ll hear excerpts from our most popular podcasts of the year.
These include firsthand accounts of Mark Driscoll’s abuse and control from the former head of security at Driscoll’s The Trinity Church in Scottsdale, Arizona. You’ll also hear how Franklin Graham pressured Naghmeh Panahi to reconcile with her abusive husband, Pastor Saeed, despite Saeed’s threats to harm Naghmeh and take her children.
In another TRR exclusive, a former insider at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries explains what really happened behind-the-scenes at RZIM and w…
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Dec 16, 2021
Are We Addicted to Leadership?
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
Why is it that we have so many bullies and heavy-handed leaders in the church? Perhaps it’s because we’re addicted to leadership—and have elevated a model of leadership that has everything to do with the world and nothing to do with Jesus.
In this edition of The Roys Report, Julie discusses Christians’ addiction to leadership with Lance Ford—a pastor, church-planter, and co-founder of the Sentralized Conference in Kansas City. In 2012—long before bully pastors like Mark Driscoll and James MacDonald were exposed—Lance wrote a book called UnLeader, warning about what he sensed was a misplaced emphasis on leadership.
Lance noticed that Christian books on leadership were hitting the New York Times best-seller lists. Church conferences on leadership were booming. But books on discipleship and being a servant like Jesus—sadly, they were about as scarce as the servant leaders they aimed to create.
Lance also had some experiences that co…
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Dec 7, 2021
Is Conservatism Biblical?
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhFYe1x12d8
Is conservatism biblical? And what are the dangers of mixing Christianity and politics?
In this edition of The Roys Report, join Julie in addressing these issues head-on with Coleman Luck, author of The Curse of Conservatism.
Though Coleman holds conservative theological and political views, he warns against a syncretism that’s seeping into the church. He argues that we’ve equated “biblical” with “conservative.” And we’ve mixed the kingdom of God with the kingdom of man.
“Two-thousand years ago, Jesus Christ said that His Kingdom was not of this world,” Coleman writes in his book. “His followers have been trying to prove him wrong ever since.”
Coleman has a unique vantage point. In the 1980s, Coleman was a Hollywood producer and worked on the hit series The Equalizer and Gabriel’s Fire. He’s also the author of Day of the Wolf, a book about wolves in sheep’s clothing, whi…
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Nov 4, 2021
Untwisting Scriptures on Gossip & Negative Emotions
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
https://youtu.be/wTlB1JdXBhQ
What does the Bible really say about gossip, bearing false witness, fear, anger, and other negative emotions? Is it wrong to speak out against another believer? Is it sinful to feel mad?
In this edition of The Roys Report, prolific author Rebecca Davis joins Julie to discuss the third book in her series Untwisting the Scriptures that were used to tie you up, gag you, and tangle your mind, which deals with words and emotions.
For example, is it biblical to just keep quiet if someone offends you? Is it gossip to simply share negative information? When is it okay to be angry? And is empathy a sin?
Rebecca and Julie shared rich conversations in the past about Rebecca’s first two books, addressing Scriptures used to support systems of patriarchy and to enable abuse. Those discussion were fascinating, as Rebecca explained how many popular Bible passages have been twisted to say something they don’t.
This latest discuss…
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Oct 29, 2021
Fired Liberty U Spokesman Tells Inside Story Behind Lawsuit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3CiG2D6CrE
* Guest Bios
* Show Transcript
Did Liberty University mishandle Title IX sexual assault allegations? The school’s former spokesman says it did—and he joins Julie Roys in a special edition of The Roys Report to tell his inside story.
Lamb this week filed a federal lawsuit against Liberty, accusing the school of firing him for raising objections to Liberty’s “mishandling” of Title IX allegations. In this podcast, Lamb describes what happened in the October 4th meeting he had with Liberty President Jerry Prevo and other top officials, which led to Lamb’s firing.
According to Lamb, not only did he raise the issue of Title IX violations during the meeting, Lamb also confronted Prevo for trying to use the university’s think tank—the Standing for Freedom Center (formerly the Falkirk Center)—to “get people elected.” This led to a heated confrontation in which Prevo called Lamb a “liar” and demanded his resignat…
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