Free Range with Mike Livermore
Free Range with Mike Livermore
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Law professor interviewing a wide range of guests on topics in law, politics, philosophy, science, the environment, and AI.
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Nov 14, 2023
S2E21. Cale Jaffe on Environmental Advocacy and Clinical Education
In this episode of the Free Range Podcast, host Michael Livermore is joined by guest Cale Jaffe, director of the Environmental Law and Community Engagement Clinic at the University of Virginia School of Law. The conversation touches on several key issues in environmental scholarship and pedagogy.
A theme of the conversation is the relationship between lawyers and communities in environmental disputes. Jaffe argues lawyers must approach communities with humility and truly listen to their goals and concerns. Environmental fights should be led by impacted residents rather than lawyers parachuting in with prescribed legal strategies. Jaffe shares an example opposing a Virginia coal plant where he took a top-down approach that alienated local community members.
Jaffe’s experience connects to debates within environmental justice scholarship around procedure versus substance. Jaffe emphasizes that inclusive processes must have power - community input should shape project outcomes. Mere listening without willingness to change plans is insufficient. Centering community voice and leadership is critical for just environmental policymaking.
Livermore and Jaffe also discuss the role of disagreement within the environmental community. Oten, the major groups adopt unified stances to maximize resources and influence. However, these unified stances often mask internal disagreement on issues like nuclear power. There are no easy answers balancing coordination and open dissent.
In terms of environmental clinical pedagogy, Jaffe aims to develop wisdom in students rather than just technical skills. He stresses genuinely connecting with students as people first. He does so through blending classroom and practical work which helps model community lawyering goals like humility and listening. The Environmental Law and Community Engagement Clinic allows engagement on varied issues of intellectual and social importance rather than just organizational priorities.
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Nov 1, 2023
S2E20. Nicholas Allen on Blue Humanities and Irish Literature
On this episode of the Free Range Podcast, host Mike Livermore has a conversation with literary scholar Nicholas Allen about his recent book "Ireland, Literature and the Coast: Seatangled".
The discussion begins with an examination of the book's evocative title. Allen explains that the phrase “seatangled” comes from a scene in James Joyce's “A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man,” where the character Stephen Dedalus looks out at the seaweed shreds in the ocean as he contemplates his future. For Allen, this image captures the ideas of motion, flight, and piecing things together that are central to his analysis of Irish literature through the lens of the sea and coastline.
The core of the book consists of close readings of authors, artists and specific works related to Irish coastal life and culture. Allen elaborates that he chose works that have long been stuck in his imagination, ranging from an early 20th century novel about a shipping clerk to the coastal maps created by artist Tim Robinson. His aim was not to be comprehensive but rather to
highlight neglected or forgotten histories and show their continued cultural presence. In discussing his critical approach, Allen emphasizes that he is less interested in making definitive arguments and more interested in creating rhythms and connections that allow readers to see texts differently. He wants to find a descriptive language that conveys sensation and experience without colonizing or containing its subject. This pursuit of openness, empathy and freedom guides his writing.
The conversation explores how the coast features as both literal place and literary metaphor in the book. Other topics include the creative aspects of literary criticism, the meaning of “critical thinking,” placing Irish literature in a global context, the complications of national literature as a category, and Allen’s surprising archival discoveries while researching the book. Allen illuminates a fluid, interconnected approach to Irish literature that breaks down boundaries and expands perspectives.
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Oct 18, 2023
S2E19. Lisa Robinson on Cost-Benefit Analysis
On this episode of Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by Lisa Robinson, a senior research scientist and the deputy director at the Center for Health at the Harvard School of Public Health. Lisa is a leading expert in the use of cost-benefit analysis to evaluate public policy.
The conversation begins with a discussion of the use of cost-benefit analysis and its importance in policy making. Robinson describes cost-benefit analysis as a systematic framework to examine policy impacts, which can help inform the choices made by political decision makers. Often, there are substantial uncertainties in analysis, which means that they do not deliver highly precise estimates. That said, the analytic process often generates useful information that can improve a policy. (0:11-5:22)
The two then discuss controversies surrounding cost-benefit analysis. Controversies include how to value morality risk reduction through tools like the “value of statistical life.” Robinson discusses her view that the term “value of statistical life” is misleading, because actually most rules affect very small risks that are experienced by large populations. Robinson also emphasizes the non-paternalistic nature of cost-benefit analysis, because it is based on how people actually value effects in the world. (5:22-25:56)
Robinson then describes how cost-benefit analysis has become complex over time which makes it difficult for the public to understand, and therefore analysts need to improve communication with non-experts. There are also empirical challenges surrounding this topic, with rising debates around accounting for distributional effects of this analysis. Often the effects of cost-benefit analysis are unevenly spread, causing issues for disadvantaged groups and enforcing the relevancy of value judgments. Overall, cost-benefit analysis informs decisions but does not dictate them. It provides useful information, but there are limitations such as legal constraints. More work is needed to extend and refine the framework across policy areas. Despite its difficulties, for Robinson, overall cost-benefit analysis contributes to good policy decisions that improve social welfare. (25:56-59:53)
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Oct 4, 2023
S2E18. Leif Wenar on Unity and the Resource Curse
On this episode of Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by Leif Wenar, professor of philosophy at Stanford University and author of Blood Oil: Tyrants, Violence, and the Rules that Run the World.
Wenar first delves into his argument that the “resource curse” arises when natural resource wealth correlates with authoritarianism, conflict, and corruption. He explains this results from international rules allowing whoever controls resources to sell them legally, thereby empowering dictators and militias. Consumers are thus complicit in funding coercion through everyday purchases. To counter this, Wenar contends we should reform the rules to only allow purchasing natural resources from governments minimally accountable to their people. He provides specific civil liberties criteria to make this accountability judgment, noting countries like Brazil have already pursued such legislation. Beyond pragmatism, Wenar argues this principled reform based on popular sovereignty would prevent our complicity in suffering and reflect our professed ideals (0:37-28:13).
This relates to Wenar's philosophical work on “unity theory” - the view that intrinsic goodness lies in unity of one's will with the world, unity amongst people, and unity within oneself. Acts like cruelty and domination exemplify disunity and are intrinsically bad, while kindness and altruism reflect unity and are intrinsically good. Love represents the pinnacle of unity's value.
Applied to resources, the status quo divides countries against themselves and pits the West against other nations in lose-lose conflicts. Though divisions abound, Wenar finds hope that humanity's growing cooperation and stability suggest we are gradually unifying more over time. Ultimately, we should change unjust rules which divide peoples from their resources in order to build a more unified world. This connects to Wenar's foundational value theory. He argues prevailing accounts based on pleasure or desire satisfaction fail to capture much of what we view as intrinsically good and bad. Unity better explains the full range of our value judgments, from the innate badness of spite and cruelty, to the essential goodness of love and altruism. Reform to unite people and resources is thus both pragmatic and philosophically grounded in a robust theory of value (28:14- 1:07:00).
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Sep 20, 2023
S2E17. Lisa Heinzerling on Environmental Law and the Supreme Court
On this episode Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by Lisa Heinzerling, an environmental law professor at Georgetown University and former Associate Administrator of the Environmental Protection Agency's Office of Policy during the Obama administration.
The focus of the episode is centered around major Supreme Court decisions on environmental law over the past two decades. The two begin by discussing Massachusetts v. EPA, a 2007 case where the Court ruled 5-4 that the EPA has authority under the Clean Air Act to regulate greenhouse gas emissions. Heinzerling explains that during the Bush administration, the EPA denied a petition to regulate greenhouse gases, arguing it lacked authority and did not want to regulate. Environmental groups challenged this decision, leading to the Supreme Court ruling the EPA does have authority to regulate greenhouse gases under the Clean Air Act’s broad definition of “air pollutant” (0:00-7:54).
The pair then discuss how Massachusetts v. EPA established clear statutory authority for the EPA to regulate greenhouse gasses and shaped the Obama administration’s regulatory actions. Fifteen years later, and after a complicated procedural history, the Supreme Court reviewed the Obama-era Clean Power Plan in West Virginia v. EPA (2022). In that case, in striking contrast to Massachusetts v. EPA, the Supreme Court limited the EPA’s authority to regulate greenhouse gas emissions from power plants under the Clean Air Act. In West Virginia, the Court also embraced the “major questions doctrine,” which presumes against broad agency regulatory authority on major policy issues (7:55-27:40).
On the Clean Water Act, Heinzerling and Livermore trace a similar pattern. In Rapanos v. United States (2006), the Court upheld federal jurisdiction over wetlands with a “significant nexus” to navigable waters, but the recent Sackett v. EPA (2022) severely restricted federal jurisdiction under the Clean Water Act (27:41- 40:01).
Heinzerling expresses concern that the current Supreme Court's skepticism of agency regulation will constrain executive and agency actions to address environmental problems like climate change. She finds the road traveled in just less than two decades from Massachusetts v. EPA to be “sobering.” Livermore concludes by noting that although some environmentalists believe that the courts could be a useful venue for promoting a strong response to climate change, with the current Court, that seems highly unlikely (40:02-56:45).
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Sep 6, 2023
S2E16. Jessica Locke on Buddhism and Environmental Engagement
On this episode of Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by Jess Locke, an associate professor of philosophy at Loyola University, Maryland. She studies Buddhism, Western psychology, and cross-cultural philosophy.
Locke’s interest in Buddhism is both personal and scholarly. She has a longstanding contemplative practice, and when she began her PhD program in philosophy at Emory, her goal was to engage with Buddhism from a Western philosophical perspective. Locke discusses how her work as a philosopher working with Buddhist ideas differs from how scholars in religious studies departments approach some of the same material. For Locke, religious studies scholars often take a historiographical and anthropological perspective on religious traditions, whereas she is interested in using philosophy to interrogate the ideas in a more general way. (0:00-10:59).
Locke then discusses the difference between cultural appropriation and cross-cultural engagement when approaching Buddhist traditions. Over the past several decades, a mutual process of exchange across Buddhist and non-Buddhist traditions -- especially in the West -- has opened up. This exchange has created a new frontier in the long history of Buddhism, which has spent centuries traveling, adapting to and blending in with different histories and cultural contexts. One important recent thread in Buddhism focuses on social engagement and how Buddhist principles like interdependence and impermanence to contemporary social issues like environmentalism. Some see this as distorting traditional Buddhism, while others argue Buddhism must adapt to new circumstances. (10:59-38:50).
The conversation wraps up with the contrast between Western and Eastern ethics. Locke explains how in Western culture, there is a larger focus on obligations and rights. For Locke, Buddhism is more concerned about ethical reflection and transformation than articulating a set of universal rules of conduct. In the environmental context, that might mean focusing on the relationship humans have with the environment rather than specifying the correct way to approach any given environmental problem. That said, Buddhism does not automatically lead to ethical behavior, as seen in some historical and contemporary examples like Japanese Zen nationalism and the persecution of Rohingya in Myanmar. There can be gaps between doctrine and how ideas manifest in society. Overall, Buddhism offers resources for rethinking the relationship between humans and nature, but does not represent a magic solution to ethical issues (38:50-1:02:06).
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Aug 23, 2023
S2E15. Lee Fennell on Rethinking Property
On this episode of Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by Lee Fennell, a law professor at the University of Chicago and author of Slices and Lumps: Division and Aggregation in Law and Life,.
The conversation begins with a discussion of the role of aggregation in law. Fennell explains that in many other contexts, resources only provide value when they are combined into usable chunks. Property law can be understood as balancing two competing concerns – facilitating the aggregation of recourses to create value (on the one hand), and avoid too much aggregation, which can create opportunities for free-riding (0:36-18:13).
Fennell explains how property law helps individuals and groups create stream of benefits. Property law is distinctive, in part, because it involves the concept of ownership. But property's traditional model of ownership doesn't always fit modern needs to solve new collective action problems. Ideally, property owners have some power over their property – and confidence that their rights will remain stable, while also not being able to impede how things are put together for the greater good. Stability is important for property owners, but the world is dynamic. Culturally, there's a conflict between the idea that property ownership involves absolute control and the reality that it's constrained by regulations and external factors. A major challenge for the future is to redefined concept of property in a way that's more adaptable but still aligns with people's expectations of stability. One solution could involve allowing ownership interests over certain benefits (like housing) but not fixed to a specific physical footprint (like a particular house), providing flexibility while maintaining stability (18:14- 37:35).
Fennell is interested in how private and entrepreneurial efforts can work alongside existing property concepts to find ways to address challenges. This includes utilizing law to facilitate voluntary transactions and dynamic property management. However, Livermore points out that government coercion is inherent to property law. Fennell describes the challenge as transitioning from traditional property expectations to more flexible models that encourage voluntary interactions and entrepreneurial solutions, adapting property arrangements to address today's urban and environmental challenges.
In reimagining property systems, two major changes could be considered: first, making property ownership less permanent and allowing for adjustments; second, moving away from fixed geographic locations and making property rights more dynamic. This could involve creating options for property ownership that can be called back or reconfigured under certain conditions and enabling more flexibility and collaboration among owners for potential redevelopment. Another approach might involve concentrating property under a single owner who can then rearrange holdings, but this approach comes with its own challenges of concentration and scale. These ideas aim to introduce more adaptability and responsiveness to property systems while still maintaining individual ownership. Lastly, addressing inequality through property involves considering how services are created and distributed, as political decisions and public goods shape property's value and impact; illuminating these dynamics can help reveal alternative ways to configure property for a more equitable outcome (37:36- 1:02:27).
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Aug 9, 2023
S2E14. Sabeel Rahman on Democracy and Administration
On this episode of Free Range Podcast, host Mike Livermore is joined by Sabeel Rahman, a professor at Cornell Law School with substantial public policy experience, including as president of the think tank Demos and as senior counselor and then later as the acting Administrator in the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs in the Biden administration. Rahman is also the author of the book “Democracy Against Domination” amongst other works.
Livermore and Rahman begin by placing his book within recent historical context, from the 2008 financial crisis that renewed attention to economic inequality, to the 2016 presidential campaign of Donald Trump, which substantially emphasized attacks on the regulatory estate. For Rahman, he argues that the technocratic, managerial approach to governance that was promoted by many liberals in the aftermath of the 2008 financial crisis lack the moral resources to truly respond to the political moment, creating an opportunity for Donald Trump to propose an alternative. Rahman also discusses his view that the challenge of the modern economy is not income inequality, but rather that problem of power and domination. (0:48-10:51)
In his book, Rahman is also interested in emphasizing historical ideas that have lost currency, including by thinkers such as Louis Brandeis and John Dewey, that focused on how to construct a democratic system in light of economic power. These ideas have been picked up by modern scholars and policy makers such as Lina Khan and Jed Purdy. The book also discusses how norms of democratic governance interact with the administrative state. (10:51-23:40) The conversation turns to questions related to expertise, the role of interest group bargaining in the administrative process, and the potential for broader participation. (23:40-36.49) They discuss participatory mechanisms such as citizen assemblies, lottocracy, and existing cooperative federalist approaches. (36.49-40:10)
The final segment of the podcast focuses on Rahman’s time at Demos and in the Biden administration. (40:10-1:07) Rahman discusses the role of the civil service in a robust democracy, the need for civil society, and some steps that the Biden administration has taken to facilitate community participation in federal decision making. The conversation ends with a discussion of the complex interplay between deliberation, participation, and the necessary exercise of political power in the real world.
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Jul 15, 2023
S2E13. Holly Doremus on Conservation in the Anthropocene
On this episode of Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by Holly Doremus, a professor of environmental law at Berkeley and the co-director for the Berkeley Institute for Parks, People, and Diversity. Doremus has a interdisciplinary background with a PhD in Plant Physiology from Cornell in addition to her JD. For Doremus, one of the benefits of an interdisciplinary educational experience is that it has helped her to
better understand what questions different disciplines are able to address and what questions they may not have thought to ask.
In our approach to answering conservation questions, we need to reevaluate what our goals are in order to decide how to achieve them. At the start of the Endangered Species Act in 1973, crucial questions, including fundamental questions concerning the nature of a species, and our risk tolerance and willingness to commit social resources to conservation, were either not understood or were seen as better addressed later. A further contemporary challenge is that the ESA was not framed to protect the proportion of species that are at risk today.
One consequence of the Anthropocene is an increasingly number of species under protection, which means greater limits on individual and commercial activity. Doremus believes that congressional intervention will become more common as the number of ESA controversies increases (6:44-23:34).
Due to the tendency of politics to act as a set of competing performances, Congress is not the place we should start the conversation about reconsidering our conservation approach. Rather it should begin in academia, where crucial interdisciplinary discussions can happen. Academics can generate an updated consensus of the public’s opinion on biological conservation (23:35-46:27).
Even if conservation goals were agreed upon, there would still be many questions about how to achieve those goals. To what extent should humanity take the role of the world’s gardeners? Who gets to decide what the garden looks like? How much control should we have over species in order to achieve our conservation goals? What are the obligations of the public to pay for the conservation that it wants? These are all complex political and scientific questions that will have to be answered in order to make legitimate progress in conserving the biological world (46:28-1:02:10).
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Jul 12, 2023
S2E12. Richard Lazarus on the Shifting Politics of Environmental Law
On this episode of Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by Harvard Law professor Richard Lazarus. Lazarus is the author of the book “The Making of Environmental Law”, which is now out in its second edition.
On of the key takeaways from Lazarus’ book is that environmental law is especially difficult because environmental science and economics collide with the lawmaking system. Ecosystems naturally spread cause and effect out over time and space. Therefore, activities that occur in one place at one time have consequences that arise at another place and time. Regulation and lawmaking systems struggle with this because these laws regulate people at one place in time for the benefit of another group at another time, leading to substantial distributional consequences. (0:36-16:03)
The distributional effects of environmental law have also contributed to the current polarized political situation regarding environmental action. In a state like West Virginia, there were political gains to be made by the Republican party by opposing climate regulation, because of the local economic costs of reducing the nation’s reliance on coal. As the parties vie for different constituencies, polarization naturally arises when groups opposed to or supportive of environmental protection sort into the two parties. This dynamic has played out over many issues in the past decades, but environmental policy may be particularly prone. (17:50-31:05)
The two then discuss environmental justice and its ties to the polarization of environmental law. Lazarus reflects on how his view of the topic was changed when a student in his hazardous waste class inquired about his theory that waste sites are more prevalent in minority neighborhoods. That interaction ultimately led Lazarus to rethink how he approached environmental law to focus more on race, class, and fairness issues. (33:30-44:21)
The conversation wraps discussing polarization and the role of the courts. Lazarus offers his view that attention to fairness issues and the commercial opportunities presented by environmental transitions can help build a bipartisan coalition in favor of environmental protection. The two then discuss the two most recent major environmental cases in the Supreme Court: West Virginia v EPA and the Sackett case. For Lazarus, the West Virginia decision to uphold the repeal of the Clean Power Plan was irresponsible but not out of bounds; it prevented an ambitious future plan for environmental protection, which had a solid, but not unassailable, statutory basis. He sees Sackett because it relied on shoddy interpretation of the Clean Water Act to undermine a longstanding and successful environmental program. Despite this, Lazarus has a somewhat optimistic view of the Court. Even if it will continue to be an obstacle to executive action to protection the environment, if it is possible to pass new environmental legislation to address issues like climate change, he believes that the Court will not get in the way. (47:28-1:06:23)
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Jun 28, 2023
S2E11. Curtis, Gulati, and Weidemaier on Empty Green Promises
On this episode of Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by UVA Law professors Quinn Curtis and Mitu Gulati, as well as UNC-Chapel Hill Law professor Mark Weidemaier, all experts in the regulation of financial markets, to discuss new paper, Green Bonds and Empty Promises.
A wide range of institutions borrow within the bond market, including municipalities, corporations, and sovereign nations. The essence of a bond is a set of promises, which include repayment terms and limits on opportunistic behavior by debtors. One new feature of the bond market is the rise of ESG (Environmental, Social, and Governance) investing. ESG is widespread within the mutual fund industry, but has found a place in the bond market as well. But there is a difference between investing in the environment through stocks and through bonds. Stocks allow the investor to earn more as companies gain wealth by adapting to climate change, but bonds are paid back at a fixed rate of return, so the risk and return equa…
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Jun 14, 2023
S2E10. Ganesh Sitaraman & Shelley Welton on Networks, Platforms, and Utilities
On this episode of Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by Vanderbilt law professor Ganesh Sitaraman and University of Pennsylvania law professor Shelley Welton. Both guests are experts in regulatory policy and are co-authors of a new case book Networks, Platforms, and Utilities.
Case books serve as the academic bedrock of law school classes. They are collections of seminal cases that facilitate the understanding of a specific field of law. Networks, Platforms, and Utilities collects primary source material that cover infrastructure areas such as transportation, communications, energy, finance, and technology. The subject of regulated industries has fallen away as a law school class in recent decades, but the industries did not disappear, nor did an important role for law and regulation. Networks, Platforms, and Utilities is intended to revitalize this area of teaching and scholarship (0:45-23:36).
One key distinction that helps structure the conversation on regulation is the di…
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May 31, 2023
S2E9. Jenny Kendler on Art and Environmental Crisis
On this episode of Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by Jenny Kendler, the artist in residence with NRDC. Kendler is an artist and activist whose work focuses on climate change and biodiversity loss.
The conversation begins with a discussion of one of Kendler’s ongoing works, Amber Archive. To draw attention to the anthropogenic loss of biodiversity, this piece represents an imagined future where humanity is interested in undoing the harm that has been done. There are a number of energy intensive, high-tech initiatives in place to preserve DNA of threatened species, but Kendler imagines a more ancient and analog way (0:46-9:33).
The next work Livermore and Kendler discuss is Underground Library, which represents a library composed of discarded and unread books that sample the history of nonfiction works on climate change. This piece surveys what we’ve known about the state of the climate and how that knowledge has been dismissed. Many of these books went unread and were d…
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May 17, 2023
S2E8. Danae Hernandez-Cortes on Environmental Economics & Justice
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore is joined by Danae Hernandez-Cortes, an economist and professor in the School of Sustainability at Arizona State University who studies environmental justice and the distributional consequences of environmental policy.
The conversation begins with a discussion of the new emphasis within environmental economics on environmental inequality, with researchers now focusing on questions related to where pollution is located with respect to disadvantaged communities and how policy affects the distribution of environmental harm. Comparing environmental inequality to general inequality is difficult to do precisely, but Hernandez-Cortes describes the distribution in environmental inequality as comparatively sharper. Race and ethnicity tend to be an additional variable, beyond income as indicator of exposure to environmental harm. Many current inequalities are the result of historical legacies of discrimination and racism. There are many moving parts…
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May 3, 2023
S2E7. Paul Stephan on the Knowledge Economy and Global Politics
On this episode of Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by Paul Stephan, a comparative and international law expert at UVA Law and author of the new book, “The World Crisis and International Law: The Knowledge Economy and the Battle for the Future,” recently published by Cambridge University Press.
Stephan defines the concept of a knowledge economy as the increasing reliance on conceptual work rather than physical labor as a means of adding value to goods and services. He cites the example of container shipping and its impact on the distribution of goods around the world. Stephan argues that innovation is a driving force in the world economy and that international liberalism has emerged as a means of reducing barriers to talent and scalability, which are essential components of the knowledge economy (00:40-9:22).
Stephan discusses how global trade systems like the WTO and GATT were formed to promote international liberalism and reduce barriers to trade. He also discusses the…
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Apr 19, 2023
S2E6. Alex Wang on Environmental Governance in China
On this episode of Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by Alex Wang, Professor of Law at UCLA, co-director of the Emmett Institute on Climate Change and the Environment, and expert on the law and politics of Chinese environmental governance.
Beginning with Wang’s initial experience in environmental issues in China, the US, and the NGO community, he discusses the generational and globally formative transformation he witnessed over his three decades in the field (1:37 - 9:36). After China’s entry into the WTO, there were some expectations for a broader economic and political liberalization. While there has been an increase in marketization and economic freedom, the Communist Party has maintained tight political control (9:37-14:26). Although formal political freedom is limited in China, Wang emphasizes that there are many mechanisms through which politics occurs; he also discusses important developments in the state’s administrative law and responsiveness to citizen demands…
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Apr 5, 2023
S2E5. Emma Marris on Ethics and the Non-Human World
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore is joined by Emma Marris, an award-winning environmental writer and author of Wild Souls: Freedom and Flourishing in the Non-human World. (0:00-1:26)
The two begin the discussion by analyzing how nature is defined and valued. Marris critiques the concept of nature; for her, there is no “unspoiled” nature free from human influence, and the idea is associated with colonialist efforts to deny rights to indigenous communities. Marris contrasts the concept of nature with wilderness, which emphasizes the autonomy of non-human animals.
The subject of wild animal suffering has seen increasing focus in animal welfare circles. Marris was drawn to the subject when observing certain conservation practices, especially concerning so-called “invasive species.” Many of these practices involve killing wild animals, and she saw that there were difficult moral questions that were often ignored. (1:47-18:40)
The conversation moves into the ethics of…
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Mar 22, 2023
S2E4. Jed Stiglitz on the Reasoning State
On this episode of Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by Jed Stiglitz, a law professor at Cornell whose new book, The Reasoning State, was recently published by Cambridge University Press.
The podcast begins with a conversation on the love-hate relationship between American society and agencies like the EPA. These agencies hold a lot of power and are called on to address many pressing social problems, but they also seem to be a near constant target of political attack. (0:39-5:14) Stiglitz is skeptical that these attacks are genuine and sees them as playing a more symbolic role.
Nevertheless, the question of what legitimates agency’s authority remains. Stiglitz argues that expertise is not the sole reason that the political branches often delegate important decisions to agencies. For him, administrative process plays an important role. Agencies are bound by procedures, like reason-giving and independent review that legislatures are not, and fundamentally cannot be. (5:14- 15…
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Mar 8, 2023
S2E3. Alex Guerrero on Democracy by Lottery
On this episode of Free Range, host Mike Livermore is joined by Alex Guerrero, a philosophy professor at Rutgers who writes in moral and political philosophy. Guerrero is a leading philosophical defender of the idea of lottocracy—the practice of choosing political leaders through lottery rather than elections.
The podcast begins with Guerrero’s diagnosis of the failures of our current politics and the limitations of reforms such as changes to the campaign finance system. (0:33 - 12:40) Guerrero goes on to challenge what he referred to as the “Churchillian shrug,” which is the view that there are no viable alternative to electoral democracy. For Guerrero, elections are a technology, and there is no good reason to think that there are not better options available. There is no guarantee that elections are not the ideal system, but they are imperfect, and it would be wise to be open to different ways of organizing our politics. (12:40-19:19)
One difference between today and the p…
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Feb 22, 2023
S2E2. Explainer: The Controversy over Wood Pellets
On this episode of Free Range, Host Mike Livermore is joined by two University of Virginia Law students, Matt Disandro and Elizabeth Putfark, who have produced this explainer episode on the pros and cons of wood pellets as a replacement for fossil fuels.
To make wood pellets, wood from trees is broken apart, heated to reduce moisture, converted to a fine powder, and compressed to form dense, short pellets. According to Daniel Reinemann from Bioenergy Europe, a nonprofit based in Brussels that advocates for biomass energy, wood pellets are the closest thing that the biomass market has to a commodity. (6:50-8:09)
Dr. Knight, the Group Director of Sustainability at the U.K energy company Drax, explains the key difference between biomass and fossil fuels: fossil fuels take millions of years to turn biological matter into fuel; biomass, on the other hand, was carbon in the sky a few years ago. Disandro, Putfark, Knight, and Reinemann discuss carbon sequestration, the carbon dividend, and…
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Feb 8, 2023
S2E1. Laura Candiotto on Loving Nature
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore is joined by Laura Candiotto, a Professor of Philosophy at the University of Pardubice in the Czech Republic. Candiotto’s recent paper, "Loving the Earth by Loving a Place," serves as the starting point for the conversation in today’s episode.
Candiotto begins by highlighting how her understanding of loving nature differs from common usage. She argues that if we take up the love of nature in a casual way, we cannot really appreciate its moral and political value. Candiotto mentions that she begins with the account of love as care. It is not just a feeling of enjoyment, but caring about this subject’s well-being. She also mentions the value account, entailing that we appreciate some qualities, specific features, and intrinsic value of the object. Next, there is the fusion account of love, which spells out the idea that when we love, we really want to be one with our beloved. Often, this leads to the idea that love is an idea of onenes…
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Dec 28, 2022
S1E30. Host Mike Livermore on Interdisciplinary Engagement
Host Mike Livermore concludes Season 1 of Free Range with a solo episode on the value of interdisciplinary engagement.
Livermore begins with the theory behind the podcast—speaking with guests with various perspectives and backgrounds relating to the environment and sustainability—and the tradeoffs between being a generalist rather than a specialist. (0:43 – 4:32) In this episode, he wants to explore the questions around interdisciplinary scholarship and engagement: Why do people do it? How is it useful? How is it done in a productive way? (4:37 – 11:20)
To begin, it is useful to understand why disciplines exist in the first place. A functional defense of disciplines is that they help us structure our knowledge production. (11:22 – 15:27) There is utility in modeling the world at different scales and reducing complexity of the models. Even though boundaries are somewhat arbitrary, they can help provide needed structure, and porous boundaries allow for productive crossover. D…
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Dec 14, 2022
S1E29. Rich Schragger on the Power of Cities
On today’s episode of Free Range, Michael Livermore speaks with UVA Law colleague Rich Schragger a leading expert on local government, federalism, and urban policy and the author of City Power: Urban Governance in a Global Age.
Schragger begins the episode by discussing the idea of ‘city power,’ which is meant to challenge the usual narratives about local governments and cities. (0:42 - 2:41)
Livermore and Schragger turn to one view, of cities as selling a suite of policies and amenities. In his book, he discusses the mistake of misinterpreting sorting as a theory of economic growth. Schragger is skeptical of claims that a city has failed because of a decrease in population, which can have other causes. He argues that even in an economic downturn, cities need to provide good municipal services. (2:44 – 10:40)
They discuss theories of growth in cities, debating if growth is a policy independent processes. Schragger elaborates on the relationship between institutions and growt…
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Nov 30, 2022
S1E28. Michael Greenstone on Economics and Environmental Policy
On today’s episode of Free Range, Livermore is joined by Michael Greenstone, the Milton Freedman Distinguished Service Professor in Economics and the Director of the Energy Policy Institute at the University of Chicago. He served as the Chief Economist for President Obama’s Council of Economic Advisors and has worked for decades engaged in research and policy development on environmental issues.
Livermore and Greenstone begin by discussion the climate provisions of the Inflation Reduction Act and their policy implications (0:47-4:47) Greenstone offers his take on what the IRA means (if anything) concerning the role of economists in debates over climate policy (4:48-8:49) and the two discuss the relationship between energy prices and politics. (8:50-14:10) Livermore and Greenstone agree that transparency of pricing mechanisms can be both a feature and a bug. Greenstone mentions that while the US is viewed as a free market place, our instinct is to approach the situation as engineer…
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Nov 16, 2022
S1E27. Gerald Torres on Environmental Justice
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore interviews Gerald Torres, a professor at the Yale School of the Environment and Yale Law School and Director of the Yale Center for Environmental Justice. Torres explores the connections between environmental law and social justice from a scholarly and practical perspective.
The discussion begins with the Yale Center of Environmental Justice and its efforts to link together environmental justice initiatives across the university and community, including with local Native American tribes . (0:53 – 8:02) This raises the question of how to define work that relates to environmental justice. (8:06 – 14:11) This issue partly implicates whether environmental justice issues are a subset of a broader set of social justice claims or if they are distinctive from other areas. For Torres, one distinction is that the environment requires a broader and deeper perspective. (14:15 – 19:30) Another distinction is the focus of the EJ community on gove…
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Nov 2, 2022
S1E26. Katherine Blunt on Energy and Wildfires
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore interviews Katherine Blunt, a journalist at the Wall Street Journal and the recent author of California Burning: The Fall of Pacific Gas and Electric and What it Means for America’s Power Grid.
The conversation begins with the book’s narrative of criminal charges, with Blunt briefly describing the cast of characters and situations in the book that led to prosecutions for a violation of the Federal Pipeline Safety Act and 84 counts of involuntary manslaughter. The latter was one of the first situations in history in which a company was charged with homicide. (0:32-7:06)
Even with these successful criminal prosecutions, many were left with a sense of dissatisfaction. (7:07-10:30) Livermore and Blunt discuss some of the moral complexities of collective criminal liability. (10:31 - 17:45) Blunt highlights the fact that the victims compensation fund is tied to the future stock price of the company; different types of penalties have the po…
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Oct 19, 2022
S1E25. Jonathan Colmer on Environmental Inequality
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Jonathan Colmer, an Assistant Professor at the University of Virginia’s Department of Economics and the Director of the Environmental Inequality Lab. His research interests are in environmental economics, development economics, and the distributional impacts of environmental policy.
Colmer begins by discussing a recent paper of his that examines the distributional characteristics of air pollution in the United States and how they have changed over time. Tracking exposure temporally and spatially, they concluded that while there have been air pollution reductions in the last four decades, the disparities have persisted in the same affected areas. (0:40 – 4:15)
Livermore and Colmer discuss the implications of this work for understanding environmental inequality. Colmer explains that the proportional reductions have implications on the allocation of resources we expend on reducing pollution. He also note that reducing total p…
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Oct 5, 2022
S1E24. Michelle Wilde Anderson on America's Cities
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Michelle Wilde Anderson, a law professor at Stanford. Anderson is the author of The Fight To Save The Town: Reimagining Discarded America, published in June 2022.
Anderson begins by explaining the subtitle of the book, which draws attention to places that have both high poverty and few governmental resources, challenges that tend to be mutually reinforcing. Anderson discusses the reasons she chose the four places that the book focuses on: they’re exceptional places in terms of rich histories and good leadership, they contribute to a larger story when studied together because of their highlighted differences, and they represent the larger range of towns facing the problem of being poor and broke. (1:17 - 5:28)
Livermore asks Anderson, why she decided to focus on narratives rather than data and policy solutions. Anderson explains that the dominant stories that we tell about these places typically include violence, corruption,…
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Sep 7, 2022
S1E23. Henry Skerritt on Art and Politics
On this episode of Free Range, UVA Law Professor Mike Livermore speaks with Henry Skerritt, Curator of Indigenous Arts of Australia at the Kluge-Ruhe Aboriginal Art Collection at the University of Virginia.
Skerritt begins by introducing the Kluge-Rhue and how this collection of over 3,000 works of Indigenous Australian Art ended up at the University of Virginia. He explains that while aboriginal Australian art is the longest continuous artistic tradition in the world, it is also a contemporary movement that was used for political representation in the 20th century (0:49 - 4:50).
They discuss the connection between art and politics, explaining how aboriginal art has played a role in asserting property rights for indigenous peoples. Skerritt discusses Milirrpum v Nabalco, the first significant case for indigenous land rights in Australia, which was initiated by the Yirrkala bark petitions in the 1970s. Ultimately, the political movement spurred by the bark petitions led to the Aborigi…
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Sep 7, 2022
S1E22. Jed Purdy on the Value of Democracy
On this episode of Free Range, UVA Law Professor Mike Livermore speaks with Jed Purdy, Duke Law Professor and author of the forthcoming Two Cheers for Politics: Why Democracy is Flawed, Frightening – and Our Best Hope.
Purdy begins by discussing why current crises and loss of confidence in democratic institutions drew him to his current project. (0:43-4:37) People have begun to ask more of politics than in previous decades to address issues such as climate change and economic inequality, but our confidence in government institutions is still low. This presents a paradox: we want more from politics but we have growing reason to doubt that politics can deliver. (4:38-10:26)
Livermore and Purdy discuss how his project fits into the broad trend of theorizing about the meaning of democracy. (10:27-16:51) Purdy endorses civic virtues like open-mindedness but he sees a tendency to avoid the aspect of democracy that is decision-making. He is sympathetic to an earlier view that is more maj…
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Aug 24, 2022
S1E21. Matthew Burtner on Ecoacoustics
On this episode of Free Range, Michael Livermore speaks with Matthew Burtner, a Professor of Compositions and Computer Technologies in the music department at the University of Virginia. Burtner’s work explores ecology and the aesthetic link between human expression and environmental systems. His latest album is Ice Field.
Burtner begins by discussion how his music tries to decenter humans. (0:51-2:29) After listeners hear a snippet from the title track, Livermore inquires about the physical logistics of how he recorded this track. (3:58 – 8:13) Burtner recalls the improvisation he did while on the ice field and describes how environmental music appreciating a new kind of beauty. (8:21 – 11:55) He goes on to explains his commitment to understanding these natural systems as independent forms of aesthetics. (12:00 – 17:30)
Burtner describes how he uses sonification to translate environmental data into sounds. He describes how sonification allows us to listen to sounds new kind…
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Aug 10, 2022
S1E20. Moira O'Neill on Housing and Environmental Review
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Moira O’Neill, a professor of Urban and Environmental Planning at the University of Virginia who also has a joint appointment at UVA Law. Her work covers land use, climate change, equity, and resilience. A specific area of her research is land use law and its relationship to housing affordability, integration, and environmental impacts in California.
O’Neill discusses the motivation for her recent study on the regulatory choices that restrict the development of different kinds of housing. (1:39 - 4:17). O’Neill describes the biggest highlight of the study: there’s incredible variability in how jurisdictions apply both state environmental review and their own law. (4:18 - 6:16) There is also a vast amount of local discretion. Most approval processes are discretionary rather than through a faster ministerial pathway that is contemplated by state law. (6:19 - 13:24)
O’Neill points out that environmental impact reports w…
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Jul 27, 2022
S1E19. Ronald Sandler on Ethics and Species
On this episode of Free Range, Michael Livermore speaks with Ronald Sandler, a Professor of Philosophy at Northeastern University. Sandler writes on environmental ethics, emerging technologies, and ethical issues surrounding climate change, food, and species conservation. His books include Environmental Ethics: Theory and Practice and The Ethics of Species.
Livermore and Sandler begin the episode by discussing the relationship between various disciplines engaged in studying the environment. (0:45 - 4:11) They then turn to the question of the moral foundation for intuitions that there is special harm associated with extinction. (4:13- 9:42) Sandler dives further into this philosophical idea of values by discussing the idea that species have value above the individual organisms that comprise them. (9:50 - 15:10) Once we understand where the species came from, the history of their genetic information, and all the future possibilities they have, it is appropriate for humans to value speci…
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Jul 13, 2022
S1E18. Jonathan Adler on Federalism and Environmental Law
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Jonathan Adler, a law professor at Case Western who writes on environmental law, federalism, and regulation. In 2020, Brookings Institution Press published Adler’s edited Marijuana Federalism: Uncle Sam and Mary Jane.
Livermore and Adler begin their discussion on the topic of federalism and environmental law. Generally, Adler highlights sees the federal government as best focused on transboundary issues while states focus on issues with more localized impacts (00:49 - 02:50). Adler lists several benefits of states as venues for environmental policymaking, including variation in geography, economics, and industry as well as differences in values (02:50 - 04:35). He also highlights the value of experimentation in this regard (04:35 - 05:30). Alder also notes the distinction between decentralization as a policy matter and decentralization as a legal matter (05:30 - 06:56).
Livermore notes the large role played by the federal go…
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Jun 29, 2022
S1E17. Frances Moore on Modeling Climate Politics
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Frances Moore, a Professor of Environmental Science and Policy at UC Davis whose work focuses on climate economics. Recently, Moore was the lead author of a paper in Nature that examines an important set of feedbacks between politics and the climate system.
The discussion begins by examining the key differences between the model development by Moore and her team and other approaches. Generally, climate models take emissions as a given, or as resulting from large macro phenomenon like economic growth. The innovation of Moore’s model is to treat emissions as “endogenous” to political and social processes. Her model includes the formation of policy, which affects emissions and, therefore, the climate system (0:41 – 2:58).
Expanding more on different ways of modeling, Livermore brings up two broad approaches to climate modeling: the process used in the natural sciences, which is relied on by the IPCC (Intergovernmental Pan…
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Jun 15, 2022
S1E16. Dale Jamieson on Environmental Ethics and Democracy
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Dale Jamieson, a Professor of Environmental Studies and Philosophy at New York University. His most recent book, Discerning Experts, was published in 2019 by the University of Chicago Press.
The discussion begins with an examination of the tension between animal welfare and environmental ethics. Jamieson traces this tension back to the origins of environmental advocacy and the development of environmental law. This tension is best exemplified by the idea that animals often cause suffering to other animals, yet it is widely accepted that humans should not intervene to prevent the suffering of a gazelle when it has been caught by a lion. This leads to a discussion of the action-inaction dichotomy — the idea that letting something occur is not as bad as causing the same thing to occur — and a broader consideration of what the study of ethics involves, what its aims are, and why we engage with it. (:49 – 16:09) Expanding on t…
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Jun 1, 2022
S1E15. Kimberly Fields on Environmental Justice and the States
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Kimberly Fields, who is an Assistant Professor at the University of Virginia’s Woodson Institute of African-American and African Studies. Her recent work has focused on environmental justice, race, and inequality at the state level.
The podcast begins with Professor Fields explaining why examining environmental policy at the state level is so important, emphasizing that many of the decisions that are made to implement federal policies are made by state legislatures. This results in a significant amount of variation between states not only in how aggressively they implement those policies, but also in the extent to which they are able to do so. Expanding on the variation between states, Fields finds that a number of factors can dictate how robustly a state will enforce environmental policies, from the prevalence of grass-roots activist groups in the state and the history of the state’s approach to environmental and social ju…
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May 18, 2022
S1E14. Elizabeth Kolbert on Unintended Consequences
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Elizabeth Kolbert. Kolbert is a writer at The New Yorker, as well as the author of several books, including The Sixth Extinction: An Unnatural History, for which she won a Pulitzer Prize in 2015. Her most recent book, Under a White Sky: The Nature of the Future, was published in 2021.
The podcast begins with Kolbert discussing how journalism, as a profession, has changed over the course of her career. While praising the accessibility that the internet has provided journalists, Kolbert also laments the way it has profoundly altered the industry’s economic model, resulting in less funding being made available for in-depth reporting. She also warns that one of the unexpected byproducts of the freedom of information has been the freedom of disinformation. This has been exacerbated by changes in how journalists do their job in the internet age, where there is far less personal interaction between writers and the individuals they a…
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May 4, 2022
S1E13. Jennifer Cole & Michael Vandenbergh on Social Psychology and Climate Change
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Jennifer Cole and Michael Vandenbergh. Dr. Cole is a postdoctoral scholar in social psychology at the Vanderbilt Climate Change Research Network, and Professor Vandenbergh is the David Daniels Allen Distinguished Chair of Law at the Vanderbilt University Law School. Their work examines the political polarization of climate change and covid policies.
To start off, Livermore asks his guests how they stay positive when studying something as divisive as the politicization of climate change. Vandenbergh explains the concept of “solution aversion,” which happens when individuals are aware of a solution but are wary of the means to achieve it. Cole then describes how this problem can be avoided by leveraging group polarization to shift perspectives and uses this example to talk about the field of social psychology, generally, and what her work focuses on, specifically (:40 – 5:16). This leads to a discussion about the state of p…
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Apr 20, 2022
S1E12. Cara Daggett on the Science and Politics of Thermodynamics
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Cara Daggett, Assistant Professor of Political Science at Virginia Tech, about her new book The Birth of Energy: Fossil Fuels, Thermodynamics, and the Politics of Work.
Daggett begins by speaking about her path to studying energy via her background in biochemistry and politics. Daggett explains that her interest in carbon — the basis of life in a scientific context but a hot-button issue in the political sphere — led to a broader awareness of how politics treat the concept of energy as fuel. This, in turn, inspired an examination of how various terms such as power and, particularly, work are thought about. (:55 – 7:45) Livermore and Daggett discuss the relationship between politics and science. Daggett voices concerns about the treatment of policy issues as purely empirical. Using the example of the opioid crisis, Daggett argues that many people have legitimate questions about how scientific knowledge is created, and for…
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Apr 6, 2022
S1E11. Nick Agar on Nature, Technology, and Society
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Nicholas Agar, a moral philosopher who is currently a Distinguished Visiting Professor at Carnegie Mellon University, Australia. His most recent book, How to be Human in the Digital Economy, was published by MIT Press in 2019.
The conversation begins with something of a retrospective of one of Agar’s earlier works, Life’s Intrinsic Value, which examines the foundations of moral consideration for non-humans. Agar explains how his approach to these ideas have evolved in the three decades since the book was published. In particular, Agar expands on his belief that philosophy must challenge long-held and widely-accepted beliefs. This leads to a discussion on what Agar describes as one of the central concepts within bio-ethics, the important challenge of determining what life is valued and why. (:40 – 9:56) The conversation then proceeds to examine how these challenges fit within, and are influenced by, a hyperconnected moder…
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Mar 23, 2022
SIE10. Arden Rowell on the Psychology of Environmental Law
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Arden Rowell, a Professor of Law at the University of Illinois College of Law. Rowell’s work focuses on environmental law, human behavior, and the incorporation of a multidisciplinary approach to the study of environmental law. Her new book, The Psychology of Environmental Law, co-written with Kenworthey Bilz, was recently published by NYU Press.
Rowell begins by explaining why, despite the interdisciplinary nature of environmental law, psychology has not, to this point, had the effect on environmental law that it could and should have. She goes on to explain how and why environmental law and policy, in particular, need to be considered from a psychological perspective. This relates to the specific kinds of injuries that are suffered in the environmental law context, with Rowell explaining that environmental injuries are diffuse, complex and difficult to process, and often non-human character. This combination of factors mean…
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Mar 2, 2022
S1E9. Shi-Ling Hsu on Capitalism and the Environment
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Shi-Ling Hsu, the D’Alemberte Professor of Law and Associate Dean for Environmental Programs at the Florida State University College of Law. He is also the author of the book Capitalism and the Environment: A Proposal to Save the Environment, which was published in December 2021 by Cambridge University Press.
Professor Hsu begins by discussing what motivated him to pursue a PhD in Agricultural and Resource Economics, having already practiced for several years as a lawyer, and how his experience as a graduate student with a law degree differed from his colleagues (1:00 – 2:58). Hsu then summarizes the basic argument of his new book: that the environmental problems the world currently faces are not the fault of capitalism but, rather, are the result of society’s decisions. This leads to a discussion about the relative advantages of capitalism versus centralized planning when it comes to dealing with environmental problems.…
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Feb 23, 2022
S1E8. Karen Bradshaw on Property Rights for Animals
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Karen Bradshaw, a Professor of Law and the Mary Sigler Research Fellow at Arizona State University’s Sandra Day O’Connor College of Law. Bradshaw’s work examines the intersection of environmental law and property law. Her most recent book, Wildlife as Property Owners: A New Conception of Animal Rights, contends that property rights can be a useful tool in the protection of endangered wildlife.
Bradshaw begins by providing a summation of the central argument of her book, and explaining how the conclusions she comes to are, in fact, a continuation of trends that have been gaining legitimacy in both property rights law and trusts and estates law. She also describes how many of the ideas discussed in the book were well-established in non-Western legal systems and property regimes, such as those of many pre-colonial indigenous communities. This would constitute an expansion of the original understanding of environmental law as…
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Feb 9, 2022
S1E7. Jon Cannon on Place
Today on Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with his colleague Jonathan Cannon, who retired from UVA Law in May 2021 after over two decades of teaching at the law school. Prior to joining UVA Law, Cannon served as general counsel to the EPA, and his 1998 memo, which has come to be known as “the Cannon memo,” was influential in opening a path for EPA to regulate greenhouse gas emissions. He is currently writing a book about the significance of “place.”
Cannon begins by explaining what the concept of place means to him, and how it has shaped both his professional and personal experiences throughout his life (1:12 – 6:00). The conversation then examines American environmental policy generally, how environmental concerns are framed in the public sphere, and what influences shape how individuals experience their environment (6:05 – 12:20). Shifting to more theoretical ideas, Cannon and Livermore discuss normative approaches to the environment and how conflicting views of place m…
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Jan 26, 2022
S1E6. Karen McGlathery on Coastal Resilience
Today on Free Range, Mike Livermore discusses coastal preservation with Karen McGlathery. McGlathery is a professor at the University of Virginia’s Department of Environmental Sciences and the Director of UVA’s Environmental Resilience Institute. McGlathery’s work centers on coastal ecosystems and the discussion today covers a number of different topics related to climate change and coastal communities.
McGlathery begins by discussing her path to becoming an environmental scientist (:55 – 4:00). She then outlines the work being done at the University of Virginia’s Resilience Institute, including explaining what the term “resilience” means in the context of the environmental sciences, and how the institute works on issues related to climate change (4:10 – 7:57). McGlathery discusses one of the institute’s recent projects, which examines the effects of coastal storms on flooding patterns, saltwater contamination of fresh water sources, and how this impacts water sustai…
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Jan 12, 2022
S1E5. Madison Condon on Climate and Corporate Governance
On this episode of Free Range with Mike Livermore, Mike speaks with Boston University School of Law professor Madison Condon about the interaction between corporate governance and environmental concerns. Condon has written extensively on how corporations are changing their approach to the environment in the face of climate change issues and the rise of ESG investing, which incorporates Environmental, Social, and Governance considerations into larger investment strategies.
The conversation starts off with a discussion of the influence of massive investment funds like BlackRock, Vanguard, and State Street in the world of corporate governance. These funds are so large that they are now capable of exerting considerable influence over corporate decisions. Condon introduces the concept of Universal Owner theory in the corporate world: institutional investors have such diversified portfolios that it is now in their best interests to care about the environment (1:04 – 7:18). This leads into…
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Dec 29, 2021
S1E4. Willis Jenkins on the Humanities and Environmental Change
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Willis Jenkins, the John Allen Hollingsworth Professor of Ethics and Chair of the University of Virginia’s Department of Religious Studies. In an enlightening conversation that flows from the nature of the humanities to the way in which concerns about access to water are thought about within the academy, Jenkins explains how his work brings together three distinct but connected concepts: religion, ethics, and the environment.
This wide-ranging conversation begins with both Livermore and Jenkins questioning the strange space the humanities occupies within academia, with both suggesting that perhaps the phrase is not fit for purpose (:43 – 4:52). Providing an example of just how interdisciplinary the humanities has become, Jenkins then discusses a project he is involved with as part of UVA’s Environmental Resilience Institute. The project examines the central problem of water security, and Jenkins explains what that means,…
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Dec 15, 2021
S1E3. Lee Buchheit and Mitu Gulati on Debt-for-Nature Deals
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with sovereign debt experts Lee Buchheit and Mitu Gulati. Buchheit is a retired partner at international law firm Cleary Gottlieb Steen & Hamilton, whose practice centers on international debt restructuring and project finance. He has worked on more than two dozen sovereign debt restructuring deals, including leading the team that advised the Greek government during its 2012 debt crisis. Mitu Gulati is the John V. Ray Research Professor of Law at the University of Virginia School of Law. In addition to his academic work, he is the host of Clauses and Controversies, a podcast which examines the intersection of international finance and contract law.
To start off, Buchheit and Gulati provide a bit of background into their careers and how the field of sovereign debt restructuring re-emerged in the 1980s, fifty years after it first appeared in the wake of the Great Depression. Buchheit then provides a detailed explanation of what, exact…
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Dec 1, 2021
S1E2. Camilo Sanchez on Human Rights and the Environment
On today’s episode, Mike Livermore speaks with Assistant Professor Camilo Sánchez, the Director of the University of Virginia School of Law’s International Human Rights Clinic. Their conversation covers everything from Latin American history to the intersection of constitutional law and international law. These threads come together in the Guapinol Case, one of the clinic’s major projects. In that matter, Professor Sánchez and his students collaborate with international organizations to advocate on behalf of a group of eight illegally-detained environmental defenders in Honduras.
The conversation begins with Professor Sánchez talking about his background and what sparked his interest in international law (00:40 – 2:40). Professor Sánchez explains the importance of international law in the Latin American context, and describes how domestic politics and international law interact with each other in the region (2:45 – 10:35). The discussion examines the intersection of huma…
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Dec 1, 2021
S1E1. Deborah Lawrence on Forests and the Climate
On this episode of Free Range, Mike Livermore speaks with Dr. Deborah Lawrence, a Professor of Environmental Sciences at the University of Virginia, about her research on land use and the connection between deforestation and climate change. In this discussion, Lawrence provides an in-depth explanation of the role forests play in affecting the global climate and then discusses how climate scientists use mathematical modeling to project the future of climate change.
Professor Lawrence begins by describing how she developed her interdisciplinary approach to studying land use, which she calls “Food, Fuels and Forests” (2:30 – 5:30). This approach recognizes that the surface of the earth is a finite good, so the decision to use a part of it for one thing necessarily means it is not being used for another. Lawrence and Livermore then discuss the current state of carbon capture technology (5:55 – 13:25). Professor Lawrence explains that one of the fundamental flaws in most climate ch…
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Oct 2, 2021
ICA4.9 Ithai Rabinowitch on Engineering the Brain
Mike Livermore speaks with ICA4 Fellow Ithai Rabinowitch, Assistant Professor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem’s Faculty of Medicine. Rabinowitch specializes in neural circuits and neurobiology, and his current research is focused on exploring synaptic connections and the function of the nervous system.
Rabinowitch begins by explaining how his studies of industrial engineering nurtured his interest in neuroscience and brain function, eventually leading him to a career that combines aspects of both engineering and biology (:55 – 3:52). He then describes how his research engages in “forward-engineering,” describes how this is similar to, but distinct from, reverse-engineering, and explains how forward-engineering is used both in the field of synthetic biology generally (4:00 – 9:40). The discussion goes on to cover such topics as connectomes – the map of an organism’s brain wiring – and the ways Rabinowitch and his colleagues manipulate electrical synapses to enable…
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Oct 2, 2021
ICA4.8 Henry Taylor Interviews Mike Livermore on Legal AI
Henry Taylor speaks with ICA4 Fellow Michael Livermore, the Edward F. Howrey Professor of Law at the University of Virginia School of Law. Livermore is also the Director of the Program in Law, Communities and the Environment (PLACE), an interdisciplinary program based at UVA Law that examines the intersection of legal, environmental, and social concerns.
The podcast begins with Livermore speaking about his specialty areas, how he incorporates his interest in artificial intelligence and machine learning into his legal research, and how those interests fit within the legal field (:50 – 2:41). This leads to a conversation about the potential uses of AI in the context of the legal system, with Livermore providing an extended example of using machine learning algorithms in the criminal justice system. Livermore explains that AI and machine learning may help in determining flight risks, thereby potentially reducing the likelihood of detaining individuals unnecessarily, while also signali…
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Sep 10, 2021
ICA4.7 Alex Cayco Gajic on Intelligence and the Brain
Mike Livermore speaks with ICA4 Fellow Alex Cayco-Gajic, a Junior Professor at the Group for Neural Theory at the École Normale Supérieure in Paris. Her work centers on neuroscience and brain function
Cayco-Gajic begins by describing how, despite having a background in mathematics, “academic peer pressure” convinced her to shift her focus away from math and toward neuroscience, and goes on to explain that she continues to incorporate certain aspects of her math background into her current research. She also explains how technological advances expanded the technical to neurological researchers, to the extent that the utilization of mathematical concepts is now vitally important to the field (:40 – 10:38). Cayco-Gajic then discusses her research on the cerebellum, the part of the brain that controls coordination and movement, and the overall state of neuroscience at the moment (10:48 – 18:35). The conversation then examines various tools and techniques that neuroscientists use…
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Sep 10, 2021
ICA4.6 Suranga Kasthurirathne on AI and Health Care
Mike Livermore speaks with ICA4 Fellow Suranga Kasthurirathne, an Assistant Professor of Pediatrics at the Indiana University School of Medicine. Kasthurirathne is also a Research Scientist at the Clem McDonald Center for Biomedical Informatics at Indiana University’s Regenstrief Institute, and his work focuses on data analytics and machine learning in the healthcare context.
To begin with, Kasthurirathne offers some insight into his background, and describes how his experience developing health information infrastructure for under-resourced nations inspired an interest in data analytics. This leads to a discussion about the divide that exists between wealthy nations and poor nations, the economic disparities that exist within wealthy societies, and how artificial intelligence and information technology can help to bridge those gaps (:55 – 8:56). Kasthurirathne then speaks about how he uses AI in his research analyzing unstructured text data and natural speech, and the various too…
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Sep 10, 2021
ICA4.5 Philipp Kellmeyer on Neuroethics
Mike Livermore speaks with ICA Fellow Dr. Philipp Kellmeyer, head of the Neuroethics and AI ethics Lab at the University Medical Center, Freiburg. Kellmeyer’s research focuses on the intersection of neurotechnology, ethics, artificial intelligence, and big data. In addition to his academic work, Kellmeyer is a board-certified neurologist.
The podcast begins with Kellmeyer discussing his background and how a medical practitioner ended up working in the field of neurotechnology (:40 – 4:55). He then summarizes the current state of neurotechnology, with a focus on deep-brain stimulation, which Kellmeyer describes as the most advanced area of the field. This leads to a longer discussion about the current and potential applications of deep-brain stimulation beyond its most well-known use in treating Parkinson’s Disease. This part of the discussion also incorporates aspects of Kellmeyer’s work on ethics, such as the potential ethical issues that arise as a result of the expanded use…
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Sep 10, 2021
ICA4.4 Henry Taylor on Philosophy and Cognitive Science
Mike Livermore speaks with ICA4 Fellow Henry Taylor, Senior Lecturer of Philosophy at the University of Birmingham. Taylor’s work examines the interaction between cognitive science and philosophy, with a particular focus on consciousness, perception, and attention.
After explaining that his interest in philosophy stretches back to his youth, Taylor describes his current work in psychophysics, or the study of the relationship between physical and psychological events (:50 – 5:40). Taylor then provides an in-depth explanation of his work into attention and summarize some of the key concepts and experiments of the field, including “inattentional blindness,” “blindsight,” and the G.Y. case, one of the field’s foundational studies. In addition, Taylor explains the importance of being able to test philosophical hypotheses in a lab (5:45 – 23:30). Taylor then expands on the concept of attention itself, providing different possible definitions of the concept and how scientists…
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Sep 10, 2021
ICA4.3 Deshen Moodley on AI and Knowledge
Mike Livermore speaks with ICA4 Fellow Deshen Moodley, Associate Professor in the Department of Computer Science and Co-Director of the Centre for Artificial Intelligence Research at the University of Cape Town. Moodley’s work focuses on machine learning and probabilistic modeling systems.
Moodley begins by remembering his first encounter with computers, and how that spurred a lifelong interest in programming and, eventually, led him, first, to a career in the private sector before transitioning to an academic career. Moodley compares the differing aims of industry and academia, in addition to pointing out the way in which the structure of a country’s academic system influences the production of knowledge and the interaction between academia and industry (:55 – 8:53). Moodley then explains what machine learning is, where it fits within the broader field of artificial intelligence, and, after providing a basic introduction to Bayesian inference, offers examples of knowledge repr…
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Sep 8, 2021
ICA4.2 Laura Candiotto on Emotion and Intelligence
Mike Livermore speaks with ICA4 Laura Candiotto, whose work focuses on the Philosophy of Emotions, and the intersection of epistemology, ethics, philosophy, and cognition. At the time this interview was recorded, Candiotto was a Senior Research Fellow at the Free University of Berlin’s Institute of Philosophy; she is now a Senior Researcher at the Centre for Ethics at the University of Pardubice, Czech Republic.
Candiotto begins by explaining what exactly she means when she refers to emotion in her work, how others in her field understand the term, and why competing theories of emotion lead to controversy amongst those in the field (1:07 – 9:04). Candiotto then describes how epistemology and emotion interact with each other, explaining that often an emotional response can reveal the truth of a situation (9:15 – 16:46). Taking a step back, Candiotto provides definitions for some of the key concepts to her research, including epistemology, virtue, curiosity, and intellectual chara…
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Sep 2, 2021
ICA4.1 Jakub Growiec on the Future Economy
Mike Livermore speaks with ICA4 Fellow Jakub Growiec, Professor of Economics and Finance at the Warsaw School of Economics. Growiec’s work focuses on the world economy, economic growth, and the interaction between economics and technology.
The podcast begins with Growiec explaining his interest in economics, and the motivations that led him to tailor his work to become more accessible to the general public (:45 – 3:30). He then speaks about the idea of “instrumental convergence,” and why he believes it is an important component in the understanding of intelligence. Growiec explains how the four instrumental goals of artificial intelligence — self-preservation, efficiency, creativity, and resources — can be understood in the context of biological life. Using Nick Bostrom’s “paperclip maximizer” thought experiment, Growiec explains the relationship between general goals and instrumental goals, and hypothesizes about whether we are, in fact, living in a paperclip maximi…
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