Join us in today’s episode as I continue my discussion with Duong. We discuss the best resources to use as an inexperienced investor, we learn valuable property tax tips, we discuss the best areas to buy in based on your investment strategy
and much, much more!Timestamps:
1:09 - Everywhere you turned people were talking about property.
4:31 - Duong was fortunate in finding people who offered to help.
6:45 - Duong believes in buying only where you would want to live yourself.
9:44 - A huge percentage of australians only ever invest in one property.
13:08 - His motivation is to be free in his retirement.
16:34 - Focus on the suburbs with high owner-occupier rates.
22:12 - Choosing your resources wisely is important.
27:20 - ‘knowledge is power’ applies to property too.
30:12 - Tax depreciation isn't just about the lump sum.
32:45 - It’s not just about accruing lots and lots of properties.
35:55 - His business was developed through personal skill.
37:52 - You’ll be surprised at the amount of strangers who will help you out in life.
Resources and Links:
(2:14) And I wish I had known about it much earlier, because everybody on there would talk about it, it was a thing, like people are selling, you know, the dream, and it was the BS dream, you know, and it was very painful because of how much I knew I had to forego with making that decision.
This is Property Investory where we talk to successful property investors to find out more about their stories, mindset and strategies.
I’m Tyrone Shum and in this episode we continue our discussion with Tuan Duong, a successful investor and founder of Duo Tax Quantity Surveyors. Join us as we learn valuable tips about property tax depreciation, we hear the strategy behind his portfolio, and Duong reveals the best advice he’s received to date.
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As a young and inexperienced investor, Duong was sold a pipe dream by a project marketing company. His second investment was an apartment in Queensland, pre construction, and unfortunately he had to sell it four years later at a loss.
(0:18) It's probably one of the most significant ones for me. Yeah, it probably was one of my worst investment choices. And because of, you know, purely not being educated, and being sold a dream, you know, directly through this project marketing company, and not knowing what else to do. Probably 2013 [or] 14 maybe, that's when I first put my interest in, before they started construction in 2015 [or] 2016. So 2014 was when I made that decision, but at that time, the property market, if you remember, Tyrone, was really on top, it was right at its peak.
EVERYWHERE YOU TURNED PEOPLE WERE TALKING ABOUT PROPERTY
(1:09) Everywhere you turned people were talking about property. I was receiving emails and letters and everything from everyone, agents, buyer's agents, you know, like, should I buy brand new in sort of small boutique type apartments or units or townhouses? Or should I be buying these dense apartments in sort of Houston, which is where I bought, I bought an apartment in Houston, and it had all the right attributes from what they would sell.
(1:37) But over time, I realised that, you know what, in that amount of time, from 2014-2018, there would have been so many opportunities that I've missed out, and that's the opportunity cost of making the wrong decision and not being educated or informed. And I think I wish I had known about things, like the Property Investory Podcast, at that time, you know, there were those independent places where you could get advice, and not have to make that mistake. Being educated about that, jumping on property chat was something I've only done in the last few years.
(2:14) And I wish I had known about it much earlier, because everybody on there would talk about it, it was a thing, like people are selling, you know, the dream, and it was the BS dream, you know, and it was very painful because of how much I knew I had to forego with making that decision. And so it's a very big learning curve, that there are places like this where you can learn where to make good choices, and obviously not telling anyone how to make a choice, but gathering as much information as you can, before you make those decisions and go down the wrong road.
Duong tells us about his portfolio and the method behind his location choices.
(3:47) At the current time, I have six properties, all based in Sydney. It's a mixture of commercial and residential, something I just came across because of the necessity of my pathway. But I've been so fortunate with that, investing in commercial properties, because when I had first started the business, my first office was a rental office out of my accountants office, he sub-leased a room and you wouldn't believe it, but I was paying $75 a week for a room in Canley Heights to operate my business.
DUONG WAS FORTUNATE IN FINDING PEOPLE WHO OFFERED TO HELP.
(4:31) So very lean, but very fortunate, to come across people that will allow that and you know, you've gotta start somewhere, it wasn't the most glamorous office, you know, it had a few bug issues. But you know, that's where you start and from there, once we had to vacate that premises based on size and we were growing at that time, I bought my first commercial property in Newington which is based in Sydney and at that time I paid $440,000 for that. And you will be hard pressed to find something that's 10 years old for that price today, that's about 150 square metres.
(5:07) But I was very fortunate to start our office there, our first office, we moved in to do a beautiful renovation. And we've moved out there again, only recently, to move into another office in Homebush, which we're situated in now, which is a beautiful Technology Park next to DFO here in Sydney. But that's where we're based and so you know, it's a mixture of things, buying property for your own purpose, and I've always had that impression that if I bought something, it's my philosophy to ask, 'Would I want to live there myself?'
(5:41) And the answer is yes. If I wanted to go to Jordan Springs, if I wanted to go to Austral, I would actually want to live in these areas. If I want to go to Canley Heights, I'd love to live in those areas. And the same goes for work. Where do I want to work? I think, you know, being in the city is very expensive to buy property there, it's a great place but it's not necessary. People aren't so critical about where you're based these days. And having an office in homebush allows all of my staff who come over from all sorts of areas from Sydney, we congregate here in Homebush, which is where our head office is.
(6:15) And it's a convenient place now that we've got the Westconnex, we've got great tunnelling everywhere, I'm losing track of the amount of tunnels in Sydney and out, but it just means that it adds value to your property because it's reachable, attainable, you can get there. And so it has all the right boxes ticked for what a commercial property should do, and I've always aspired to being in these areas myself. It's a very beautiful sort of precinct we're in now.
DUONG BELIEVES IN BUYING ONLY WHERE YOU WOULD WANT TO LIVE YOURSELF.
(6:45) So yeah, I'm a big believer that you should buy where you would want to be if you believe that it's a great property. And I guess that's a very common thing. Because, you know, even a lot of people I know, I've got clients in Guilford in Sydney. And when I look at their 10 [or] 15 [or] 20 property portfolio, they're all around Guilford. So it's crazy, right? They grow up in Guilford, they buy in Guilford, and they just do so well for themselves, and it's amazing.
Moving on, Duong talks us through one of his pivotal investments in Canley Heights which put everything into perspective for him.
(8:35) I bought that property for $400,000. It's probably worth double that now, the duplex I bought. And so for me, that was an aha moment, like, 'Oh, my God', you know, seeing that purchase. And then I guess, when you first purchase it, you don't think a lot you think, 'Okay, well, I'm new to this, I'm not well versed at this'. But as time goes on, seeing that capital growth, and how little it costs to maintain a property, it's almost self explanatory that, 'Hey, this is a really good vehicle for you to drive wealth'.
(9:10) And that's when it hit me, 'Well, this is it, this is what I've got to do. This is what I've got to aspire to do'. And so, as time went on, I just stopped buying the cars, and I stopped buying the flashy, nice things and started going out less and then realised that, you know, saving money is going to take me a long way. And that's when I decided three or four years later that you know, you gotta keep going. There's other people out there that keep going and you start to learn. Your mortgage broker says, 'Well, you can do this'. And they open up this whole window of opportunity for you to say, it doesn't have to stop. It's not just one property.
A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF AUSTRALIANS ONLY EVER INVEST IN ONE PROPERTY.
(9:44) Because, you know, I would think you could only afford one, you know, and I think the majority of Australian investors today, I think it's a massive percentage of people, they actually only have one investment property throughout their whole life. And so having an opportunity to buy more, it didn't seem realistic, but then as I went through life, it made me think, 'Okay, well, you can have more than one, you can have two, you know, three'. And now I've seen other clients that do it, and I think, 'Wow, amazing'.
(10:19) Not that we get it very often, we don't get a lot of clients that are returned customers that come by depreciation schedules for the second, third, fourth time. But there are people out there that do have that. And so it's definitely possible, you know, and it's nice to see other people doing it because it helps you break through, you know, when you see other people in some pattern, you think, 'Well, you know what, if they can do it, I can do it too'. And that's a great mentality to have, I think.
Duong goes on to explain his strategy and the motivations behind his investment career.
(12:15) Capital growth is important, because you know, gaining capital is what you want to do in life to free yourself, at some stage for retirement. And so now at a mature stage in investing in property, and being a business owner, and obviously, at the age of 34, I'm starting to think about the future, right? So future planning. And for me, property is a vehicle that's going to help me grow wealth, and eventually I see it as a way to build a portfolio.
(12:43) And hopefully I can pay down debt. If I can help over time to debt-recycle my properties, and use and leverage property to start paying each other off, and have these properties that hopefully, at some stage at the retirement age of 65 [or] 67, I have a couple of unencumbered properties that will be the vehicle of retirement for me and not have to rely on the pension and things like that.
HIS MOTIVATION IS TO BE FREE IN HIS RETIREMENT.
(13:08) I wanted to be self-sustaining, and eventually have a vehicle of 3 [or] 4 [or] 5 [or] 6 properties, hopefully unencumbered, and they will then be the vehicle to help me through my retirement phase of life. So really, for me, that's the driving factor. That's the reason why I do it. It's great, because I get to understand it, I talk to a lot of people, day in, day out about property, we've got buyer's agents that work with us, we've got sales agents, real estate professionals.
(13:37) We've got tax agents that work with us, and they're always talking about it, about this vehicle. And so for me, it's a no brainer. If it works for tens of thousands of people, it must work. So for me, it's a continuous ongoing process of learning about property. Where's a good place to buy? You know, where should I invest my money? How am I going to do that at the most accelerated rate with a balance of being able to lend as well?
(14:03) Because now with, you know, tightening restrictions on lending, we've got to balance it out in terms of, you know, cash flow, and having that positive cash flow throughout all your properties to not sort of subject yourself to, I guess, being sort of lent out and not being able to borrow more money to continue your journey. So it's really important.
Aside from buying newly built properties that he could see himself inhabiting, what other strategies has Duong implemented to get where he is today?
(14:49) For me, you know, there are areas for example, where I've bought in towards Jordan Springs or in Austral. There are properties that are like Austral, you're trying to buy a property that is probably one of the most affordable ones in the area, things like Liverpool, you know, you've got good suburbs like Milton Grange, you know, Leppington, Cecil Hills, Elizabeth Hills, these are really well to do suburbs, you know, we're talking, you know, averages are $1.2 million to $1.3 million south.
(15:29) And if you're talking about driving from these great suburbs, 5-10 minutes to get to Austral, which is a thriving subdivision area, which is just full of new developments. And you think, 'Well, maybe there's an oversupply'. But then you look at the pricing implied, if they're starting around $500,000-$600,000, you think, 'Well, it has all that room to grow'. And for me, if I have that leverage to grow that much, similar to things like Kellyville, you know, Kellyville is a surrounding suburb to those areas, up in the Northwest region.
(16:00) And if you can sort of leverage off that with cheaper, affordable lots there, you want to do that, because it's got that room to get to that $1.2 million or $1.1 million price range. And that's where you want to be in 5-10 years time. So this is where my philosophy is trying to identify suburbs that are really well to do, people aspire to living there, checking out the vacancy rates, making sure that there's a high owner-occupier rate there, if most people are owner occupier there, then you want to be around these suburbs.
FOCUS ON THE SUBURBS WITH HIGH OWNER-OCCUPIER RATES.
(16:34) And that, for me, is really critical. And that's why, you know, I've chosen some of the suburbs I have. And to balance that off with, I also like to invest in places where I think, you know, because I think rental yields are really important. So having that positive cash flow is important. And for what I realised when I first purchased a commercial property is that it drives so much yield, you know, as much as I bought the premises in my personal, he was renting from the company, the company was renting the property off my trust.
(17:08) And that would allow me to yield strong cash flow, because the amount of yield you get in commercial is crazy. I mean, for a $400,000 office, you could get something like $45,000 worth of rent a year. And that's what I'm getting at this stage now that I've rented out the old office and with the new tenants, which is amazing, which is exactly what you want to do, you want to be heavily positive, geared where you can.
(17:34) And not everyone is able to do that, because the price of housing in Sydney is maybe expensive, but there are pockets like I've seen thousands of my clients do. A lot of our clients are now moving out of Sydney, they're not buying in Sydney any more than buying in good places like Tasmania, with strong growth attributes, they're buying in places that are sort of South and Southeast and even North, the Kippa-ring area in Queensland, and then they're buying in these areas because of positive cash flow.
(18:01) So it's a good balance between capital growth, what you can afford, and not sort of, you know, shooting yourself in the foot, but balancing out with these cheaper properties that have good positive growth, and also have good sort of positive yield. So you know, you get some strong rental yield in these areas, make sure that you're going to get good returns, to then help you sustain more properties, because that's what it's all about. So having I think a good team is really important to do.
Coming up after the Duong reveals the moment which sparked a change in his mind set.
(21:01) And so then when you start taking an interest in yourself and realise that, 'You know what, I can't be like this, I've got to do something for myself'.
He shares the resources which helped him in his own journey.
(21:20) And if you could go to these types of venues and events, you learn a lot, because all the information that you can gather from these places, they are very objective.
We learn the value of tax depreciation in property and what it could mean for you as an individual.
(30:48) Whether it's to, you know, splurge and take your family on a holiday, I mean, that's the power of what I do, if I can help people unlock that knowledge of, 'Wow, I've got this extra money I can go so much further with it in my personal life, family life, financially'.
And that’s next. I’m Tyrone Shum and you’re listening to Property Investory.
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Being more relaxed in his younger years, Duong eventually realised he wanted to get serious about his life and investment career. He shares the resources he utilised to improve his success.
(20:26) I started my journey out of business because of purely wanting to start a business in property. I think, for me, that ignition came from people like Napoleon Hill, I'm not sure if people know. But 'Think and Grow Rich' was a really important fundamental for me. Because I didn't have that mindset. I was very blase about life. Ten or more so years ago, I was very casual about how things should be, how I wanted to set my life to be.
(21:01) And so then when you start taking an interest in yourself and realise that, 'You know what, I can't be like this, I've got to do something for myself'. And I want to have a purpose not just in my personal career, but you know, spiritually as well, like you want more from yourself. And then you listen to these people like Napoleon Hill and talk about these things, it is amazing, because it can transform you as a person. So those places are a great place to start, especially if you're someone like me that found it very difficult to break through and find out your calling.
(21:37) And I did find that very tricky. So people like Napoleon Hill, Les Brown is an amazing speaker, I love Les Brown, because he's just awesome value and awesome energy. And having those people when you start out is amazing. But as you progress, I think as a property investor, when I started becoming a business owner and a good property investor, I needed to leverage off knowledge, people with good information. And the best way I found to do that was to go to places where they would educate you.
CHOOSING YOUR RESOURCES WISELY IS IMPORTANT.
(22:12) So not going to these project marketing type environments, but more so going to, you know, accounting firms, they would host property events. And if you could go to these types of venues and events, you learn a lot, because all the information that you can gather from these places, they are very objective. And it's straight to the point, very informational. They're talking about the latest market data, what's happening in Perth, Sydney, Melbourne, what suburbs are great.
(22:49) And they tell you about the fundamentals, I remember going to one where you know, I went in there and you know, as a Vietnamese person, I understand the Melbourne market and the Vietnamese Melbourne market very well. And they were doing an event in the city from a property expert, but also an accounting expert. They were talking about their own journeys and why they liked buying in places like Sunshine, Footscray. And they are well to do suburbs, and had you bought those properties two or three years ago, when I was in the seminars, you would also do very well.
(23:21) So for me, it's having a very good team that's around you, that gives you the advice you want and you need. And it's always very objective advice, you know, unbiased, and having that team of, you know, legal mortgage brokers that want the best for you. And that's where you want to reach out to as many people as you can to get the right advice. And where do you find these great mortgage brokers, the ones that partner up with these accounting firms, these property experts, and they go to places and then educate and all they do is educate.
(23:53) And that's where I've learned a lot of my lessons, is that I go to places and I never sell, I never want to sell anything I do, all I do is I educate people about legislation. This is what the legislation or the tax rulings allow you to do as a property investor. And if I can interpret it to you and make you a better property investor, you trust me to do what is right for you. And I think that's really important that everybody out there as property investors, find that for themselves, go out there, run the same journey, go through the same journey of finding a great team to surround them.
(25:22) So along your journey as well, do you have any particular mentors that you actually worked with over this period of time?
(25:31) In terms of business wise, I haven't had a lot of mentors, and I am very much a person that wings things. It's strange enough to say, but I've always had people advise me, I've got a great group of mates that are in business, and they become my mentors, per se. And there's a lot of people that are ahead of me that have been running their businesses, but I've started just going on my own journey. And, you know, I've tried to go down that path of mentors, but it's not something for me, because I think that I don't know what's best, and nobody knows what's best for you. Right? When it comes to mentorship.
(26:15) But, you know, I think people mentor you in their own way, you don't have to exactly have one mentor, or have someone ongoing, but you know, catching up with someone, they become a mentor, you learn so much from them. And that same goes for me when it comes to property investing. The best mentors are the people that are doing it themselves, they're living the dream, right?
(26:36) They're there, they're getting into this, they're in there, they're stuck into it, they're always trying to leverage the next property, find out what to do, and so I have a host of people around me, there's a quite a few people around me that invest in property and have a diversified portfolio. And I'm always talking to them about what they are doing in their lending side of things, their legal side of things, their structures, tax accountants? Having these people as friends, or just people with a really common interest in property, and that might be tax related or legal related, they will help you a great deal.
‘KNOWLEDGE IS POWER’ APPLIES TO PROPERTY TOO.
(27:20) And so, for me, it's being able to meet clients on a day to day basis. And then like people who are my clients, they're teaching me more about property than I am telling them about property. And that for me means that I can leverage off the knowledge, and having more knowledge is more power, as you say, Tyrone, so for me, that's really important.
(27:41) And the same thing goes when you are looking for people that you're trying to walk, you know, this journey, there is no better thing to do than to go find someone that's already walked that journey, the one that you want to take. And not to say that that's the right journey, but having an understanding of what they're going through, it gives you a great sort of baseline as to where you should go and how you should, and what sort of journey you want to take.
(28:08) So I think these events and these places of gathering are a bit hard these days, but you know, it is all online, online is a great place to start. And of course, like if anyone wants to reach out I'm more than happy to share some of these places I go to as an advisor but I go there as a property investor as well.
(28:27) And I get to listen, and I'm always learning about you know, the statistics of where people are buying, you know, what percentage of vacancy rate is in this suburb at this time, what makes it the best suburb, and like there's nothing in it for these guys. Well to do sort of property buyers agents or accountants and they live in that you know, living that dream and that journey and I'm just getting value out of it and I'm more than happy to share it with you guys out there who might be interested.
In retrospect, what would Duong say to himself if he could go back ten years?
(29:12) One thing that I was always very conscious about, and subconsciously always thinking about was you know, I was always concerned about what everybody was worried about with me. Like everyone wants to know, 'Okay, Tuan, are you doing well enough? Are you doing this enough?' There was a lot of pressure, there's always pressure in growing up, you know, thinking, 'Are you doing the right things? Ticking the right boxes in life?'
(29:35) So I think if I could go back to a 10 year younger me, I would tell him, 'Just care less, worry about your own journey and stop looking elsewhere. Focus on the road ahead and doing what you love the most'. And fortunately for me, I got to see that, 10 years ago at 24 [or] 25, by the time I was 26, and worrying about my own thing, living my own life, I then came across things that I thought I was passionate about, that resonated with me. And that's tax depreciation.
TAX DEPRECIATION ISN'T JUST ABOUT THE LUMP SUM.
(30:12) As basic as it sounds, it just resonated with me, it's something that I couldn't believe how much value it added to my life. Imagine you're talking about a $6,000 refund. It's not about that, you know, it's not about this lump sum, it's about what $6,000 means for somebody, that's more than $100 a week, in a year. I mean, having $100 extra a week, every year is going to drive massive differences in people's lives, whether it's to pay bills, whether it's to save for the next investment property for the next deposit.
(30:48) Whether it's to, you know, splurge and take your family on a holiday, I mean, that's the power of what I do, if I can help people unlock that knowledge of, 'Wow, I've got this extra money I can go so much further with it in my personal life, family life, financially'. Great, that's what it should mean for you. And that's the power of what the ATO is providing here. And if I can share this with more investors, and this is where I go on talks, and I share on, you know, properties, sort of investing seminars and talk about depreciation, and people can resonate, and that's great. I'm doing my part.
Equipped with the knowledge he has now, what's on the cards for Duong in the future?
(31:37) So the next five years, we're on a very interesting journey. Duo Tax Quantity Surveyors is now going to expand to also do Property Valuation. So the business is going to take them to that sort of avenue. And so we're going to do property valuations as a Duo Tax arm. And so that's another very interesting part of our business that we're going to be looking into.
(32:04) But on top of that, what I want to do personally, for my investing journey is start to look at how to not really expand my portfolio, I think I've got this idea that with some planning involved, if I can start paying down some of these debts over time, in the next five years to consolidate some of that debt, and look at, you know, longer term vision of trying to reduce debt, and then we can really be able to scale the rate closer to that retirement sort of goal. And that to me is important.
IT’S NOT JUST ABOUT ACCRUING LOTS AND LOTS OF PROPERTIES.
(32:45) And so it's not always about accruing lots and lots of lots of properties. For me, I have something that's manageable, properties that I think are going to perform well, and has a good balance of debt to sort of loan, and for me, I want that balance to have that passive income, that rental income that I'm getting from all these properties, by reducing some of that debt, but also have some of that capital growth opportunity.
(33:16) If I could, I would then expand my portfolio within reason and manage that cash flow. So it doesn't affect my lending too much. So that's for me in the next five years is going to be really critical. So not so much about expansion, but I think some debt consolidation for me, and I'm sure everyone has their own journey. But for me, that's where I'm sitting. I sound like an old man already.
Duong has a well thought out plan for the future, but has he always had a plan? I ask how much of his success is due to skill, intelligence and hard work, and how much is down to luck.
(34:20) I think there's always a degree of fortune, and luck, per se, but I think you know, I was very fortunate to have met, or been a part of, I think at that time, the fitting out of my mum's restaurant. I think I was very lucky to come across someone like that, to then say, 'Oh, you know what, like construction is where I want to be, I want to be construction'.
(34:48) And so part of that, I love numbers, and falling into construction, I was in estimating. And I was estimating to price work for you know for projects and road works or bridges and things like that. So it's very interesting. But then as I evolved, and I was more well versed, I realised that you know, property was so important as an arm. And here I am, had a construction degree experience in construction, and then applying that into property to drive wealth.
(35:22) I thought it was just, it was beautiful, like, I couldn't believe there was property tax, and now construction, all entangled into one providing advice on all fronts. And it's been a blessing. And when it comes to skill, you know what, being an engineer, you don't have a choice but to be very good at spreadsheets and crunching numbers. So I was, you know, being in the construction engineering role it was natural to me to develop the tax depreciation software internally.
HIS BUSINESS WAS DEVELOPED THROUGH PERSONAL SKILL.
(35:55) So it's all developed in house here at Duo Tax Quantity Surveyors, I was blessed to be able to prepare that, you know, I had the skill set to start a business out of it. I was a spreadsheet master. So my CRM here, and Duo Tax was built on spreadsheets through Google Sheets, with five or six employees using the same software. So it wasn't until probably the last three years, I was using that for a couple of years before the system just shut it off, it just didn't work anymore.
(36:27) Google had to call me and say, 'Hey, you're running a business out of a Google Sheet. I think this is not built for you'. And so we've gone on to then develop other software, things like Salesforce to be implemented into our office. And so you know, it's part of a journey, right? You're always learning and to me, yes, there is a degree of luck.
(36:46) Everybody needs a degree of fortune and luck. But the rest, unfortunately, sorry to say, listeners, but yeah, if you want something so bad, you've got to work for it. And it's all hard work. And the amount of cold calling and door to door sales I've had to do to accountants, and real estate agents is what was really important to get me ahead, because it's, you know, if you want things to grow that fast, you just got to go and get it.
(37:25) But one of the things I always preach in the office is, if you do the things that others don't, you'll achieve the things that others won't, I think it's very important. So you're going to do something very special, unique and do the hard yards, I think, and that's what I really put it down to, doing the things that others don't is that you search, you know, and you search and you ask, and if you don't ask, the answer is always, always no.
YOU’LL BE SURPRISED AT THE AMOUNT OF STRANGERS WHO WILL HELP YOU OUT IN LIFE.
(37:52) So it's very important to go out there and learn, whether it's business or investing. If you don't ask you don't know. And it's always good to ask. I find that now, there's more people out there that are willing to help versus the people that you already know that will help you. So go out there and find those people. There are great people out there that you don't know yet. And they will give everything to you to help you get ahead.
Thank you so much to Tuan Duong for taking the time to speak with me on Property Investory.
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