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David Barnard, Jacob Eiting
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Interviews with the experts behind the biggest apps in the App Store. Hosts David Barnard and Jacob Eiting dive deep to unlock insights, strategies, and stories that you can use to carve out your slice of the 'trillion-dollar App Store opportunity'.
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6 days ago
How Ladder Cracked TikTok and Grew 500% — Greg Stewart, Ladder
On the podcast: Profitably scaling TikTok ads, price optimization, and what the team learned from burning hundreds of thousands of dollars on Instagram ads.
Top Takeaways
📈 Use Micro-Influencers for Early Growth: Niche influencers with between 10k-100k followers provide a direct source to a highly relevant audience. Ladder incentivized Instagram influencers, while the app was in a very early stage, by offering a revenue share; this reinforced the collaborative nature of the partnership and made it financially viable for Ladder. (00:02:39)
💲Adapt Your Pricing Based on Your Core User: Be adaptable with your pricing model based on customer research and feedback. Ladder shifted from a higher price point to a lower one as they learnt more about what value proposition was for their core users. To reach this conclusion, they surveyed their users and analyzed the data using Van Westendorp's pricing analysis. (00:19:36)
🕺🏽Maximize TikTok by Tailoring Your Content: Whereas on Instagram you’re gradually building up an audience, on TikTok you should assume posts are reaching a unique audience every time. This means content on TikTok needs to be made for TikTok — it needs to either entertain or educate, edited in the TikTok style, and should work in isolation without prior knowledge. (00:41:04)
🕸️Using a Web Funnel to Optimize Ad Spend: Ladder efficiently targets the right TikTok audience by directing them to a web quiz. This strategy quickly reveals user preferences, bypassing longer conversion funnels. By embedding pixels in quiz questions, they gain real-time insights into ad performance, enabling rapid optimization of ad spend. (00:49:38)
🪜 Building a Retention Mechanism within the App: By building your product around retention metrics, you’ll naturally build a retentive product. For Ladder, its use of team chats are wildly popular, creating accountability and motivation in its users. And because these social elements drive so much consistency and retention, they work hard on driving users to these chats as quickly as possible. (01:04:49)
About Greg Stewart
📱CEO and Founder of Ladder, a fitness app dedicated to providing the world's best strength training plan from the world's best coaches, every single day.
💪 Greg took Ladder from zero to a million dollars in ARR with a zealous early focus on product iteration.
💡 “As a consumer business, I have learned that there is no muscle more important than growth — investing in growth, product-side growth, [and] retention. To have those learnings and that dial being controlled outside the building now makes no sense whatsoever to me.”
👋 LinkedIn | X, formerly known as Twitter
Links & Resources
‣ Connect with Greg via LinkedIn
‣ Connect with Greg on X
‣ Join Ladder
‣ Ladder on X
Episode Highlights
[0:54] Covid obstacles: Ladder launched during the pandemic but was initially geared toward gym goers. Early UA wasn’t about focus on revenue, but on product iteration to validate product-market fit.
[4:35] Loyal followings: Instagram microinfluencers were a key part of Ladder’s early strategy for driving UA — aiming for “perfect alignment” with fitness coaches.
[8:34] Onboarding: Ladder had a specific method for recommending programming based on lead source.
[12:41] From influencer to team member: The right partners were a fundamental part of Ladder’s success, not as a creator or tool-based platform but as a consumer business.
[16:46] Hardcore product iteration: Greg and his team built a set of tools for coaches after they hit a million dollars in ARR.
[22:54] Honest ad lessons: Instead of focusing on ad optimization and efficiency, Ladder asked how to tell the right stories to the right people.
[24:40] Decreasing price: The team went deep on analysis before lowering the price, with a single-minded commitment to Ladder as a customer-based business.
[30:35] New Year’s resolutions: A lack of growth following their best month ever mobilized Ladder to create a framework leading to effective growth loops.
[34:07] TikTok tactics: With diminishing returns from their Instagram efforts, Greg and his team decided to forge a new path via TikTok, which ultimately paid off.
[39:20] Money where your mouth is: “Organic is the best indication of winning content,” Greg says. But engaging content needs an effective CTA. The roundabout but telling answer is to understand your customer and provide value rather than paying too much attention to acquisition or monetization.
[48:29] CTAs that work: To reel them in, be upfront and direct to customers — and offer verifiable results.
[49:56] Hacking algorithms: Web quizzes are winners for identifying buyer personas, driving a critical move for managing spend.
[57:05] Bye-bye, LTV:CAC: Payback period is much easier to grapple with than variables that are out of the control of the team, helping Ladder to iterate on its annual offering thanks to a good handle on retention.
[1:05:06] High retention: Relentless focus on the customer’s view and experience is the key to driving UA and retention.
[1:14:56] Skeptical prerogative: Rather than building copycats and raising money, ensure there’s a clear differentiator around which the entire business is built. That way lies growth and scaling.
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Nov 15, 2023
Navigating App Growth Through Strategic Partnerships and Media Wins — Adam Allore, Wavve Boating
On the podcast: Landing PR for a niche app, negotiating strategic partnerships, and pretending to have an app helped validate that he should build one.
Top Takeaways
🚀 Validate Early and Build Smartly: Start by validating your app idea with minimal investment — even just an image or a spreadsheet. Once validated, focus on creating an MVP that delivers core value to your users, allowing for effective market testing and valuable feedback. (01:06—11:00)
🎯 Mix Up Your Early Marketing: Early on, explore a mix of marketing tactics, both paid and organic, such as Apple Search Ads and targeted PR. Adapt quickly to focus on strategies that drive early user growth and traction. (11:00—14:06)
✍️ Craft Ready-to-Publish Stories for Media Pick-Up: Develop complete, compelling narratives about your app. A story that's ready-made and engaging eases journalists' workloads and increases the likelihood of your app getting featured. (12:34—15:58)
🤝 How to Close Early Partnerships: When approaching potential partnerships as an early app startup, remember that you’re a risk, so highlight your business’s reliability and responsiveness. Be proactive and flexible in negotiations, demonstrating your commitment to deliverables and reducing perceived risk to partners. (17:02—22:55)
🌐 The Broader Impact of Partnerships: Recognize that the value of partnerships extends beyond direct metrics like user acquisition. They are instrumental in building credibility, social proof points, and establishing a presence in your niche, which leads to organic growth and further collaborative opportunities. (34:41—38:13)
About Adam Allore
👨💻 Founder and CEO of Wavve Boating, an app that provides a better marine navigation experience that’s easy, collaborative, and fun.
⚓ Adam initially wanted to build a nautical navigation map that he would use, until he organized himself a booth at a boat show that ultimately led to him building the app thanks to overwhelming positive feedback.
💡 “The quantity of emails that we got was one thing, but seeing people light up and get excited by the app and experience that I built was what gave me that confidence to quit my job, pursue this thing full time, and make the beta a reality that I was telling people about.”
👋 LinkedIn
Links & Resources
‣ Connect with Aaron via LinkedIn
‣ Check out Wavve Boating
‣ Adam talking about the Wavve App
‣ Wavve Boating on X, formerly known as Twitter
Episode Highlights
[1:10] Ahoy, sailor: Working as an engineer, Adam realized that people struggled to read nautical navigation maps, which provided the inception point for Wavve Boating.
[4:53] Fake it till you make it: Taking the scrappy route can sometimes be the best path to kickstarting your idea — even if it requires a bit of hustle.
[7:26] Just build the beta: Even the bare MVP can be enough to attract investors and users. Unique product insight is where the margin really comes from.
[11:18] Gaining traction: Adam took a shotgun marketing approach before landing on app-based PR hits with a promising community element.
[17:15] Press power: Aaron assumed the initial press outreach kickoff would drive major user growth — it added value and drove recognition in the space (and yes, some user acquisition).
[20:26] Proactive negotiation: Potential partners (especially large ones) may view small startups as a risk — subscription app developers should aim to mitigate that risk.
[26:14] Basement finance plan: Panic led to solid planning as Adam reached out to the local angel network to raise capital and get things going, including a deal that represented his first foray into B2B sales.
[29:24] Market flows: Deep link usage for the paywall was one thing, but what really paid off for the app was ensuring it was as easy to activate and use as possible.
[32:05] DevOps on the cheap: Building for the addressable market of one company could pay off bigger if you take that idea elsewhere — if you know the business. Be careful about which projects you take on, as they may ultimately prove distractions.
[35:00] Partner-driven UA: 25% of Wavve’s total UA comes from partnerships. But plenty of users come through untracked and organic channels.
[37:29] Leveraging reality: Get the PR right, and landing partnerships can quickly snowball into further opportunities.
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Nov 1, 2023
From Idea to 8-Figure Exit in 10 Years Flat — Aaron Foss, Nomorobo
On the podcast: The ultimate freemium strategy, making low-risk bets with potentially asymmetrical outcomes, and how Aaron bounced back after almost running out of money.
Top Takeaways
📐As an app startup, while in the early stages of growth, you need to find the one KPI that you’re going to choose to focus on. “Startups can do one thing, barely,” says Foss, so find the KPI that shows that your app is working as intended and that users are finding value. For Nomorobo, this was robocalls blocked; if this KPI grew, then the app was doing its job and users were signing up.
🚀 Not every launch needs to go off with a bang. For Aaron Foss, there’s too much that can go wrong. Soft launches allow you to launch when you’re ready, not when your deadline says you are. You have the benefit of seeing and catching bugs before your app becomes overwhelmed with users.
🌱 To grow organically, and only organically, requires that you find the growth “hacks” that leverage what you already have. For Nomorobo, this meant making use of a free web user base to promote the paid app; programmatic SEO landing pages built using the data they were collecting; and using that data to outreach to the press with relevant stories.
🔎 The benefit of growing slowly and sustainably is that constraints lead to greater focus. When raising money to accelerate your business, it’s easy to overextend and do too many things at once. A slow, gradual approach forces you to focus on what’s the most important thing right now.
🛣️ Freemium works best when you consider it a user acquisition path, not a revenue model, and when those free users deliver additional business value. Being free will bring you more users, but what else do those free users deliver to your business? For Nomorobo, free users on the landline side bring in data to improve the mobile product, which can then be upsold to turn free users into paid.
About Aaron Foss
👨💻 Founder of Nomorobo, an app that stops annoying robocalls and spam texts forever.
💪 With a background in programming and an MBA, Aaron built an entire product to stop robocalls from the ground up.
💡 “This is Apple’s world: We just live in it. How insane is it to start an app company building an app that is against App Store rule?”
👋 LinkedIn | X, formerly known as Twitter
Links & Resources
‣ Connect with Aaron via LinkedIn
‣ Check out Nomorobo
‣ Check out this Mixergy interview about Aaron’s entrepreneurship journey
‣ Read up on how Aaron beat robocalls for good
Episode Highlights
[1:25] The end of apps?: Aaron was between selling his last company and looking for the next challenge when the clarion call came from the FTC to tackle robocalls.
[3:46] From telephony to commerce: For Aaron, $50K signaled that there was a big incentive to solve the problem of robocalls. The size of the bounty drove him to try to develop an innovative solution using existing technology.
[12:26] Close to the chest: Getting a product out validates whether spending your life building it is a good idea or not. Aaron found that the only way to win the competition was using SimRing, but he didn’t go into detail when pitching it.
[13:39] Post-win gameplan: Twilio (and a lot of negotiation) was the key to building the foundations of early Nomorobo.
[17:44] Monetization turning point: As one of the first subscription apps with in-app purchases, Nomorobo’s inflection point was the introduction of mobile apps. It turned out that a price point of $1.99 was cheaper when running with Apple.
[21:47] Big bang, no thanks: The demand to solve the problem of spammy robocalls meant Nomorobo never needed to do any paid acquisition.
[25:43] Hiring decisions: Going from solo to building a team is never an easy leap. Aaron found that the first step was to break off customer support, and another key was to work with contractors while remaining small and scrappy.
[30:59] Relaxed raising: The company found that raising on an as-needed basis worked perfectly well for their setup, but it didn’t come without its trials. Case in point: the white-knuckle $944 in the bank account that Aaron admits they were lucky to pull off.
[35:16] Top growth levers: While Nomorobo never paid for advertising, it had to grow. How did it manage to, and why is landline protection still free?
[42:38] Press management: With landline freemium strategy and programmatic SEO locked down, the next phase was managing press and getting featured by Apple.
[47:41] Life-changing money: Like Frank Sinatra, Aaron did things his way. He shares the story of the eight-figure exit.
[53:17] Value creation: If you want to run a business, it must create value. The more value you create, the more money you make.
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Oct 18, 2023
App Optimization Through Experimentation — Hannah Parvaz, Aperture
On the podcast: How to profitably scale performance marketing, hard vs soft activation, and why you should keep an extra close eye on your marketing spend in November.
Top Takeaways
⬇️ To effectively scale your performance marketing, grasp your app's funnel from the top down. Start by honing in on app installs, enabling both you and the algorithms to learn. Progress down the funnel — optimizing for different app events as you go — but be prepared for corresponding budget hikes. Throughout this journey, continually test and iterate.
⏲️ Test your ATT prompt timing, starting with first app launch. While the ideal placement for an ATT prompt may vary per app, consider starting your tests with the prompt at first app launch. Surprisingly, this timing has shown minimal impact on sign-ups, trials, and conversions in some cases. Use this as a baseline for your own tests to find the most effective timing for your app.
🎨 Feed your always-on campaigns with rigorously tested ad creatives. Start with a control and multiple variants differing in one element. After identifying the best message, test it across various design formats. This iterative process builds a portfolio of effective creatives for your always-on campaigns, where you can, ideally, leave them untouched as you continue the testing process.
⏯️ For a clear view of product-market fit, track hard activations. These are meaningful actions — such as listening to multiple stories — that reveal user commitment. Don’t make the mistake of thinking a trial-start makes a user engaged. Use these insights to refine the user journey. Make it as easy as possible for users to reach the desired level of engagement.
🍂 Master the seasonal ad cycle: November is a tough month for ad spend, so pivot to awareness campaigns to navigate the rising costs. Come December, particularly after the 15th, you’ll find a rebound in favor of digital products as e-commerce spending drops. This period, often referred to as “Q5,” is also an excellent time to leverage gifting strategies and New Year messaging.
About Hannah Parvaz
👨💻 Founder of Aperture, a full-service growth partner making good companies better by helping them to change the world in a positive way.
💪 Hannah has helped hundreds of apps grow, and was previously recognized as a 5-star mentor at GrowthMentor, taking home both App Marketer of the Year and Consultant of the Year awards. She previously worked with learning app Uptime, narrated journalism app Curio, drink app DUSK, and music app DICE.
💡 “Every app is different: Everyone needs different levels of success, but also everyone has a slightly different strategy.”
👋 LinkedIn | X, formerly known as Twitter
Links & Resources
‣ Check out Aperture
‣ Hannah’s website
‣ Interview with Hannah on Business of Apps
‣ “Tips for Creating the Right Mindset for Business Growth” interview with Hannah Paravaz
‣ “How to talk to your customers in order to make winning ads with Hannah Parvaz”
Episode Highlights
[2:01] Personal growth marketing: Former IBM CEO Ginni Rometty said, “Growth and comfort do not coexist.” Hannah feels this is true of her professional trajectory — an encouraging reminder for everyone in the app space.
[5:02] Scaling performance marketing: The first question you need to ask is, How are you measuring what you’re scaling?
[8:25] The measure of success: Hannah recommends A/B testing and analytics to build out funnels.
[11:05] Post-ATT ad performance: Experimenting with creatives relies on specific goals and tests based on one control and multiple variants. Lots of experimentation and analysis are the keys.
[16:02] Conversations with customers: Android’s Google Play store isn’t quite as stringent as Apple’s App Store, but customers need to know how many trials and installs they’re aiming for in order to maximize the growth they need.
[18:17] Subscription focus: Hannah takes a blended perspective to subscription apps, looking at funnel steps and where the biggest opportunities are, then moving into product.
[20:52] Action hierarchy: Developers need to figure out how many first meaningful actions and core actions must take place for users to truly activate.
[25:31] Finger in the air: Tracking ROI in the early stages ****is a guessing game, but once reality matches expectations, the activation average always becomes clear.
[31:26] The blended perspective: Optimizing performance starts with looking at each channel in isolation and closely monitoring performance.
[34:31] All the leaves are brown: Halloween brings a curse that lasts throughout November — a tough season for marketers and advertisers. Costs skyrocket, then drop on December 1 for “Q5,” which lasts until the beginning of January.
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Oct 4, 2023
VC Funding vs. Bootstrapping for Subscription Apps — Martín Siniawski, Podcast App
On the podcast: Spinning off a new product from secondary product market fit, the journey of getting into YC, and the give and take of raising venture capital.
Top Takeaways
🥾 Ground expectations for launching a bootstrapped business — prepare for years of challenges and minimal initial revenue while adapting, learning, and growing over the long term.
💰 Bootstrapping versus raising capital depends on you: Venture capital accelerates growth but increases accountability and responsibility, and you need to decide how you want to grow and whether you want to take that on.
📚 The B2B success playbook is about customer retention and iterative improvement, while B2C is high-risk, high-reward. Early success is harder, so tailor your approach and expectations based on the landscape.
➗ Diversification is a double-edged sword, and being a multi-product app business is still a challenge, making focus crucial. Leverage existing user data and resources to identify truly synergistic opportunities, while staying true to your core mission and expertise.
📱 Diversified app growth means balancing cross-promotion and unique growth strategies — but not all distribution tactics translate seamlessly between apps.
About Martín Siniawski
👨💻 Co-founder and CEO at Podcast App, a fast-growing podcast player now backed by Y Combinator (W18).
💪 Having founded Streema with 10 million monthly users, Martín is now focused on scaling paid acquisition at Podcast App. The two apps have a combined 100 million downloads.
💡 “My first rule of multi-product companies is to try not to become a multi-product company.”
👋 LinkedIn | X, formerly known as Twitter
Links & Resources
‣ Check out Podcast App
‣ Connect with Martín on LinkedIn
‣ Connect with Martín on X, formerly known as Twitter
‣ Listen to Martín on From Zero to 1M
Episode Highlights
[2:37] Wandering in the desert: Bootstrapping Streema was the perfect way to learn and make mistakes.
[6:10] Masochistic motivations: Getting momentum going with Podcast App came from Martín and his co-founder observing a growing trend of people moving from radio to podcasts.
[10:03] Rise and fall: The first attempt to raise funding failed, thanks to a hard-nosed interview.
[15:36] Interview prep round #2: The second interview at YC went much better for Martín and his co-founder with the help of hindsight from their bootstrapping experience — and a lot of thought.
[17:32] How big do you want to grow?: Involving other people introduces higher stakes and more responsibility, but it can also seriously accelerate your business.
[20:52] B2B vs. B2C: Martín and Jacob differentiate between the two ways of doing business.
[26:09] YC interview tips: Martín dives deep into the second interview.
[29:07] Winning SEO optimization: Initially focused more on ads, the Podcast App doubled down on subscriptions and recently became a multi-product company with 130,000 subscribers.
[35:05] Distribution speedrun: Acquiring users has come naturally for Martín and his co-founder, and he considers distribution to be a major factor in a successfully executed vision.
[37:47] CAC LTV as product-market fit indicator: Martín is focused on making it work — the bottom line is whether or not they have a viable business.
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Sep 20, 2023
Building the Berkshire Hathaway of Consumer Subscriptions — Eric Crowley, GP Bullhound
On the podcast: The B2B opportunity for B2C apps, the App Store alone being bigger than most Fortune 500 companies, and which current or future company will build the Berkshire Hathaway of consumer subscriptions.
Top Takeaways
📱 The App Store ecosystem is far from saturated. With a nearly doubled revenue from content being purchased since 2019 and hosting close to a billion subscriptions, the Apple App Store shows that there's still plenty of room for growth and opportunity. Despite debates about consumer fatigue, these numbers signify an ecosystem that is not only surviving but thriving.
👮 The regulatory spotlight could spark change in App Store fees. Amid increasing pressure from global and domestic regulators, the question looms: Will Apple and Google adjust their app store fees? If they do, it's not just a legal win, but also a potential cash flow boost for app developers. The decision could also be a tactical move for Apple to win back transactions currently lost to alternative payment systems.
🤝 The boundary between B2C and B2B is becoming increasingly fluid, offering a new avenue for growth. Brands like Peloton and Headspace, which thrived in the B2C space during the pandemic, are now venturing into B2B. This isn't a pivot but a strategic expansion, rooted in the belief that what consumers love, businesses will too. This trend underlines the potential of consumer-centric design in unlocking new business opportunities.
3️⃣ The Three C's: Content, Commerce, Community. Companies face three key challenges: acquisition, conversion, and retention. Content lures in users, commerce seals the deal, and a robust community keeps them coming back. It's not just a formula; it's the backbone of today's thriving subscription apps.
🤔There are untapped categories ripe for disruption.
While we often see a couple of dominant brands taking over established categories like dating or fitness, there are still numerous untapped markets in the consumer subscription space. Categories like Femtech and family management are just the tip of the iceberg, presenting just a few examples of the opportunities that await innovative apps.
About Eric Crowley
💼Partner at GP Bullhound, focusing primarily on mergers and acquisitions, capital raises, and advisory transactions for technology companies.
📈 With more than a decade in investment banking and edtech growth, Eric focuses on transactions for U.S. and Europe-based growth-stage CSS, adtech, digital services, and fintech companies.
💡 “Who's the Apple of female health? Who’s the brand you go to that is by far the best, [where] you don't question it, you buy it? There isn't one. There should be one, and — for something that happens millions of times a year — why isn't there an Apple of female health?”
👋 LinkedIn and X, formerly known as Twitter
Links & Resources
‣ Check out the CSS 2023 report
‣ GP Bullhound
‣ The evolution of consumer subscription apps
‣ Future subscription trends
‣ What venture investors look for when buying an app
Episode Highlights
[2:05] Doubling iPhone numbers: Apple’s consistently high growth sees 90 billion in profits this year.
[6:23] Apps are the internet: More people want to use apps over internet sites thanks to superior UX and UI, signaling more investment into apps.
[10:27] App economics: Consumer trends clearly indicate that apps have a lot more room to grow.
[15:01] Regulator attention: The growth of in-app purchases is pressuring Apple and Google to open up payments.
[21:48] Berkshire App-away: From textiles to hundreds of over $300 billion in revenue in 2022, the trajectory of Warren Buffett’s Berkshire Hathaway portends what may soon happen in the app world.
[26:39] Making M&A waves: Eric talks through some recent significant CSS buyouts.
[29:12] B2B2C: B2B and B2C are blending, with movements between the two showing what Eric calls “growth extension,” rather than pivoting. But will they cannibalize each other?
[34:46] Three Cs: Content, commerce, and community are leading to more UGC.
[41:11] Becoming the Apple of X: So-called “category killers” show where the greatest potential for success in the app space lies.
[49:44] It could be you: Nearly 80% of companies featured in the annual CSS report raised or sold for a great exit.
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Sep 6, 2023
How To Raise Prices (the Right Way) — Reid DeRamus, Substack
On the podcast: whether or not to increase your price, how to execute if you do, and why price increases often impact growth more than retention.
Top Takeaways
💳 Should you raise your app’s prices at all? It’s one of the most impactful ways of increasing lifetime value and revenue so the answer is yes: you should definitely consider raising prices. But it’s a balancing act. How do you not sacrifice long-term growth for short-term gain?
🌟 Avoid customer backlash by reaffirming the value proposition. Asking people to pay more for the thing they’re already getting is a tough sell, so reaffirm your value proposition by simultaneously launching new or teasing upcoming features ****to avoid customer backlash.
💰 Look at your retention metrics to determine whether or not to raise prices. Above-average retention metrics might indicate that you’re leaving money on the table and should consider a price increase — but if they’re not healthy, focus on product and retention first.
📈 Price increases tend to affect acquisition more than retention. Strong price increase execution means less churn from existing subscribers, with a little more pressure on new user acquisition.
🏆 Add tiers to give users options and strategically raise prices. Bundle higher tiers with extra features or introduce lower tiers for your core user base.
About Reid DeRamus
👨💻 Growth PM at Substack, a newsletter publication platform that provides writers and creators with infrastructure, payment, analytics and design to publish their work and send to email subscribers.
💪 Reid helped launch and grow Hulu, Crunchyroll, and HBO Max, taking his learnings and starting a company called Yem that helped individuals and small teams build their own media empires. Yem was then acquired by Substack, where Reid is now a Growth PM.
💡 “I need to figure out the value that my existing subscribers are getting [and] make sure I'm reinforcing that. But I also need to be mindful of how it'll slowly expand from my core audience today, too, if I want to continue driving subscribers.”
👋 LinkedIn | X, formerly known as Twitter
Links & Resources
‣ Growth Croissant
‣ How To Increase Your Price
‣ How To Improve Retention
‣ Boosting Retention with Better Onboarding
‣ Improving Retention with Audience Surveys
‣ Connect with Reid at LinkedIn
‣ Reid on X, formerly known as Twitter
‣ Substack on X, formerly known as Twitter
Episode Highlights
[1:13] Price increase: Raising prices is a great way to boost customer lifetime value and revenue but executing it well is a balancing act — with tradeoffs.
[5:40] Consumer sentiment: Asking customers to pay more for the same product is a tough sell. Take a cue from the standard set by Netflix and Spotify by teasing changes and with marginal — not double — increases.
[9:26] Subscription 101: Substack is a great analogy for consumer subscription apps. Health metrics can be “too good,” with writers significantly underpricing their work and not aggressively marketing.
[17:22] Surveys: Surveys don’t only help establish core price, but also what the most passionate fans might pay relative to core subscribers.
[19:18] Be sure to tier: Streaming platforms and a few pioneers in the subscription app space are leading the way in what is likely to become the default business model within the next five years. “Not all subscriptions are created equal,” Reid highlights.
[22:42] Hitting the ceiling: At what point are you bumping up against your total serviceable market?
[24:46] On reaching 12 million: Having a deep relationship with your audience can pay off much more than having the best video player, payment engine, website or app. It’s about persistently asking how you can deliver more value.
[27:51] Back to surveys: Figuring out where core users are finding value comes from surveys via Google Forms, or face-to-face on Zoom calls.
[31:47] Balancing act: There’s no universal right answer to drive business growth. Early on, find initial traction with a relentless focus on product-market fit.
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Aug 23, 2023
App Store Ethics, Dark Patterns, and Rule-Breakers — Steve P. Young, App Masters
On the podcast: “Black hat” app optimization, the benefits and drawbacks of hard paywalls, and why, despite Apple and Google’s best efforts, so many apps still use dark patterns and even blatantly break the rules.
Top Takeaways
🎩 Lots of (even the top) apps continue to deliberately break app store rules — even if you don’t break them too, you need to know what black hat strategies you’re up against. (3:46, 13:25)
🔍 Running “keyword install campaigns” mobilizes a large number of people to search for a particular keyword and download the app, tricking the app store algorithms by increasing app relevancy — and rankings — against that keyword. (7:21)
🔐 Don’t be afraid to lock down more content, use a hard paywall, or get more “aggressive” with paywall visibility. If people can use an app for free, they will. (18:59-37:09)
📊 Opinions don’t matter — data does. There are contrasting approaches to onboarding and monetization, so test what’s right for your app and look at the data. (40:01)
✅ Fully optimize your onboarding and your paywall through tinkering, then stabilize to drive revenue via the top of the funnel. (45:46)
About Steve P. Young
👨💻 Founder and CEO of App Masters, an app marketing agency that helps grow apps faster, better, and cheaper.
💪 Steve has spent over a decade growth hacking millions of app downloads, and knows the black hat strategies many top apps use to game the system.
💡 “My opinion does not matter. Everything is based on data.”
👋 LinkedIn | X
Links & Resources
‣ Check out App Masters
‣ App Masters on YouTube
‣ Connect with Steve at LinkedIn
‣ Steve on X
‣ App Masters on Facebook
‣ Steve on Instagram
Episode Highlights
[1:40] Knife to a gunfight: App Store ethics aren’t cleancut. How can you play by the rules when so many apps are using dark patterns to get ahead?
[5:03] Do what you gotta do: Black hat strategies like review-buying are just too tempting not to use in the journey from zero to one.
[8:31] Relevant hacking: Keyword install or boost — similar to ASO — campaigns are still possible to get higher in keyword rankings — as long as you have the right keywords.
[13:25] Legal disclaimer: Even if you don’t like cheating, knowing what competitors are doing is crucial to planning your own strategies.
[14:43] Very edgy: Steve dives into his top “edgy things” for increasing visibility and revenue.
[18:59] No hard paywall: When a growth hacking tactic yields thousands of organic downloads, why put in the X? Data talks, until Apple comes around.
[26:16] AI wall: Given the costs of running AI models, you’re giving away value if you don’t have a hard paywall.
[29:48] Scammy territory: There’s a fine line between bannable black hat strategies and gaming the system.
[34:52] Lock it up: Steve suggests locking as much as you can behind a paywall: Beware giving away value for free, and always look at the data.
[40:01] Your opinion does not matter: Keywords tell us which apps to build.
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Aug 9, 2023
From Consultancy to $10M in ARR — Vince Mayfield, TalkingParents
On the podcast: The right way to raise prices, the painful lessons from picking the wrong tools, and why you should respond to every single app review.
Top Takeaways
✍️ Start surveying as soon as you start developing, and don’t stop. Identify your MVP by understanding customers early on, and develop new features with key customer insights when you’re growing.
📈 Bundle extra value if you must raise prices to soften the blow of a tough sell and demonstrate attentiveness to customer needs.
🧰 Cheaper, easy-to-integrate tools might not scale on infrastructure and unit economics, which could lead to a painful re-engineering process down the line.
🏗️ Plan for scalability from the start by adhering to solid software engineering principles and ensuring your tooling integrations are easily switchable.
🤑 Provide premium support for a premium product price. Respond to every store review — each interaction leaves a lasting impression on customers and drives loyalty.
About Vince Mayfield
👨💻 Co-founder and CEO of TalkingParents, an app that helps divorced or separated parents manage communication and share responsibilities.
💪 Vince and his partner jumped from professional services to building a scalable app with $10 million in ARR.
💡 “People like to compartmentalize elements of their life and they don't want to have a million apps.”
👋 LinkedIn
Links & Resources
‣ Connect with Vince on LinkedIn
‣ Check out TalkingParents
‣ TalkingParents on Instagram
‣ TalkingParents on Facebook
‣ TalkingParents on Pinterest
‣ TalkingParents on X (formerly Twitter)
‣ Get TalkingParents from the App Store
‣ Get TalkingParents from Google Play
Episode Highlights
[1:35] Origin story: Making money while we sleep is the ultimate goal — Vince talks about how he moved from agency to product company to $10 million in ARR.
[4:44] From hired gun to product growth: Lack of app monetization and not understanding customers early on may make pivoting to a product focus challenging.
[7:59] Risk management for risk mitigators: How do you make money from the court system? Easy: Switch focus to the real customers.
[10:32] Freemium tinkering: Vince dives into the app’s early strategy for monetization and subscription — burning through close to $1 million in the process.
[12:59] Chartered surveying: When it seems like an app is charging too little, asking customers what features they want and need is the ticket to nailing down value.
[15:59] Downhill slalom vs. uphill climb: Raising already low prices can be delicate, but bundling additional value with a rollout often softens the blow. Look for opportunities to layer on deeper value.
[28:33] Nudges and needs: From surveying to app instrumentation, Vince and his partner had to understand the customer journey before making the right moves.
[32:08] The ultimate tool belt: Not paying attention to how apps can scale from the very beginning is an easy mistake for app developers to make — especially when using tools.
[38:28] Best-in-class assessment: Starting with best-in-class tools isn’t always doable, but adopting good software engineering techniques as you go is a satisfactory quick fix.
[41:28] Lightning round: Vince talks about why support matters and how that translates into running a business and customers’ responses.
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Jul 26, 2023
What it Takes to Succeed with Paid User Acquisition — Thomas Petit, App Growth Consultant
On the podcast: Setting sensible goals for paid marketing, how to measure and learn from the results, and why a single ad creative can completely change the trajectory of a company.
Top Takeaways
🥅 Set clear and realistic goals before investing in paid UA — and make sure you can afford to experiment. It can be tough to get to ROAS positive, and even tougher to get that return quickly.
💰 Monthly ad budgets should ideally start at $10-20k for big, algorithmic platforms — increasing data volume for optimization — while lower budgets call for exploring non-algorithmic platforms and influencer marketing.
🤔 Successful ads are built on in-depth, comprehensive user understanding, including their triggers and responses to different messages — before investing in advertising.
🧪 Test and iterate radically and substantially in the the quest for the ideal creative: Promising concepts need further refinement and tweaking, especially given the unpredictable nature of what might work.
🤝 Focus on conversion rates, not just high user engagement
for ad campaigns — low conversion can negatively affect overall performance, and ad platforms like Facebook and Google aim for a balance between engagement and revenue.
About Thomas Petit
👨💻 Independent subscription app growth consultant.
💪 Thomas has worked with hundreds of clients and helped manage tens of millions of dollars in ad spend.
💡 “Know your expectations and know what you're after… a lot of people don't ask this question in a deep enough way.”
👋 LinkedIn | Twitter
Links & Resources
‣ David’s talk at Mau Las Vegas
‣ Revisiting the Fundamentals of App Marketing Post IDFA — Thomas Petit
‣ Check out MADV - Mobile. Ad.ventures on Substack
‣ Connect with Thomas on LinkedIn
‣ Connect with Thomas on Twitter
‣ Get involved in the Sub Club community
Episode Highlights
[2:50] Minimum viability: What does it take to start making paid UA work? The answer depends on what you want to achieve with it.
[9:44] The early bird catches the worm: If you know what you want from the get-go, Thomas explains why starting paid UA early might not be a bad strategy. But only gamble what you can afford to lose.
[14:00] A word on Facebook: If running on a tight budget, Thomas “strongly recommends against” buying ads on Facebook because of targeting and demographic challenges.
[18:44] Cash moves everything around: The guardrails around scaling on algorithmic platforms necessitate a five-digit monthly budget minimum. Below $10-20k a month you’re operating in a very tough spot.
[24:57] Good Ol’ Google: Operating on low budgets, choosing keywords for Google searches may still work. Using a simple landing page builder is an avenue to explore — but only very early on when you need to assess SEO and imagery. The three checks are: goals, cash, and ARPI.
[31:31] Scaling paid UI: Thomas goes deep into how to scale paid UI, and how MMPs and SDKs play into that.
[39:56] The measure of success: It’s critical to assess evolving trends based on changing spend. But attribution isn’t (and never was) an exact science. Look at whatever tools you have at your disposal for an estimate.
[45:39] His toolkit: Thomas talks about the tools he uses for modeling incrementality across product and subscription lifecycle events.
[53:44] Let’s get creative: With growing automation, getting ads right is crucial. Messaging, USP, and understanding your audience all factor into effective ads. Don’t rely on intuition.
[1:05:01] USP: There’s no secret formula for a single, winning USP, but you need to test it to understand what users react to.
[1:09:41] Spanning the gap: Some successful ads are indirect and don’t transition. The relation between downloads and transitioning is a tough nut to crack, but teasing and explicitly explaining it’s an app are good ways to try at least a slight transition.
[1:13:26] Clickbait install rate: Beware of the delicate interplay between clicks, reduced install rate, ad spend, and ROI.
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Jul 12, 2023
Achieving Mission & Profit with Freemium — Erin Webster-Shaller and Paul Apollo, Lose It!
On this episode: balancing mission and monetization, the challenges inherent to referral programs, and why Lose It! had to abandon a big push into paid user acquisition.
Top Takeaways
🆓 Excellent free products need a large user base to upsell — messaging millions of users about special offers can deliver fantastic returns. (10:32)
🚂 Extend onboarding for increased trial engagement by asking more personalized questions to boost trial start rates and tailor the user experience. (14:43)
👏 Celebrate user success to drive word-of-mouth marketing and organic growth, while strengthening the bond between users and your brand. (25:47)
🥇 Encourage setup of premium features during trials while carefully A/B testing each feature for user resonance. (31:49)
🏃 Identify key actions to boost user conversion with the power of data analysis: Target users with discounts or special offers to entice them to upgrade to a premium subscription. (36:29)
About Erin Webster-Shaller
👨…
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Jun 28, 2023
Cultivating Organic Growth with Viral Loops — Guillem Ros Salvador, Hevy
On this episode: We talk with Guillem about how Hevy got traction early on, growing without paid marketing, and why you might not want to raise your price, even if customers would pay more.
Top Takeaways
🏛️ When shaping your MVP, establish a clear framework to guide your product development. Particularly for small teams or those bootstrapping, maintaining a lean approach is crucial. Identify your product's three core pillars, which will inform your decisions on which features to retain or eliminate.
🪞 Do you believe if you build it, they will come? That might be the case occasionally, but launching a new app can prove challenging. A practical initial strategy, covering roughly 80% of your bases, is to mirror successful competitors: target the same keywords, implement similar tactics. This isn't a long-term strategy, but it will position you ahead of those who do nothing and attract an initial user base.
🤝 When developing a social app, be cautious about how pricing change…
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Jun 14, 2023
How Headspace Optimized Revenue by Gating Content — Shreya Oswal and Keya Patel, Headspace
On this episode: The evolution of Headspace’s freemium model, balancing mission and monetization, and why referral programs sometimes work better without incentives.
Top Takeaways
💰 Don’t be afraid to experiment with gating 100% of your content. Not only can this result in a significant lift in paid users, in cases where an app requires some effort from the user (such as with meditation), getting them committed with a free trial early on can boost engagement levels versus free users.
⚠️ Promoting your strongest performing plan at the expense of your others doesn’t always have a positive effect. Let’s say your annual plan might display the best performance in terms of revenue or retention, giving it too much prominence can cause lower intent users to sign-up for it, leading to fewer trial-to-paid conversions. In these cases, giving users choice could produce the best results.
👪 Users on family plans can show the strongest retention rates. When users subscribe to yo…
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May 31, 2023
Hitting 2M Downloads Without Funding, Employees, or Learning to Code — Ania Wysocka, Rootd
On this episode: the one small tweak that increased revenue 5X, growing an app organically, and how hiring an ASO consultant actually tanked downloads.
Top Takeaways
💰 Not all problems can be solved with money, so see if you can fix your own problems internally — like team communication — before paying for external help.
💡 Highly relevant ASO keywords with lower search volumes are a better bet for engaging audiences earlier and seeing snowballing success.
🌅 Putting a paywall early enough in the onboarding process might just supercharge revenue and growth.
📰 When you don’t have an advertising budget, start with local journalists and tie press releases to key events in the year.
🌳 Organic referral mechanisms — ****like screen sharing success and milestones — can be very effective while enhancing user experience.
About Ania Wysocka
👨💻 Founder of Rootd.
💡 “I‘m so obsessed with the user experience, that it's important to work with others who…
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May 17, 2023
Product Lessons From a Profitable, $20M ARR Subscription App — Jesse Venticinque, Fitbod
On this episode: the trap of building for existing subscribers, incentivizing word of mouth, and why paid marketing should be an accelerant, not the foundation of your growth strategy.
Top Takeaways
📱 Growth comes from focusing on product retention: Build a product users really want, creating an engaged customer base and fueling the growth loop down the line.
🗣️ Build a viral growth loop based on word-of-mouth. A product that exceeds user expectations is the ultimate way to drive word-of-mouth — even if your app isn’t naturally social.
👥 Paid advertising is an accelerant to user acquisition (UA) — not your sole UA channel. It should come after product focus and word-of-mouth virality.
😀 Measure and improve retention by finding your minimum engagement milestone. Look to your ICP for clues.
🙅♂️ Talk to your users who aren't subscribers. There's a tendency to focus user research on super-users, but they won't tell you much about why others aren't…
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May 3, 2023
How Freemium Can Outperform Free Trials – Shaun Steingold, Momentum Labs
On the podcast we talk with Shaun about the power of community, the importance of testing your freemium strategy, and why you might not want to offer a free trial.
Top Takeaways
🎆 Understanding unintuitive power laws is the ticket to explaining — and benefiting from — explosive app growth.
🪝 Deciding what goes behind the paywall is 90% of an app’s success — but developers typically only spend 10% of the time thinking about it.
🆓 Beware the free trial, which could create negative experiences and conversion rates — and might not outperform a freemium model.
🌍 Absorbing the cost of a freemium model comes down to creating an engaged, irreplaceable community, which is more likely to buy and lead to higher conversions.
🫶 Don’t focus on rates and formulae at the expense of what matters: Where users are in their emotional journey and how the app fits into their lives.
About Shaun Steingold
👨💻 Founder and managing director of Momentum Labs and CEO of…
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Apr 19, 2023
Maximizing Organic Growth with App Store Optimization — Ariel Michaeli, Appfigures
On the podcast, Ariel dives into the fundamentals of ASO and how to research and optimize keywords. He also explains why ratings matter much more than reviews, and why you should never, ever duplicate keywords.
Top Takeaways:
🔍 It’s not that it’s hard to get discovered with ASO — it’s that it’s hard to get discovered without doing enough ASO. Expect to spend more time exploring on the front-end, but this isn’t a “set it and forget it” strategy.
⭐ Make sure that you're optimizing for ratings: they are more impactful for discoverability than download numbers alone.
📛 When choosing an app name, make sure you put the most important keywords as early as possible.
📊 Don’t rely on intuition for your ASO strategy — always look at the data.
🔑 Spend as much time using the keywords as you do on finding them — beyond just in your text meta.
About Ariel Michaeli
👨💻 Founder and CEO of Appfigures.
💡 “If you only trust intuition, you probably…
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Apr 5, 2023
How to Boost Retention with Subscription Lifecycle Messaging — Alice Muir, Phiture
On the podcast, we talk with Alice Muir about how best to onboard premium users, what lifecycle optimization looks like both tactically and strategically, and how to spot users before they churn. She shares insight into why focusing on CRMs for win-back strategies is only part of the story, and the best campaigns to entice users to stick with their subscriptions.
Top Takeaways:
📧 Email is good for two things: drip campaigns — offering a staggered, increasing discount to entice signups — and long-form content to keep premium users engaged.
📲 Consider using in-app messaging as proxy testing for paywalls if you don’t have access to A/B testing tools or are working with different regional pricing.
🎁 Using CRM for quick win-backs is a band-aid for churn — instead, you need to consistently add value to people’s lives.
🤔 Tap into human psychology and increase retention by reminding people of what they’re going to lose by unsubscribing.
💸 Balance discounts with…
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Mar 22, 2023
Lessons From Building a 70 Person Growth Team — Jason van der Merwe, Strava
On the podcast we talk with Jason about some of Strava’s big growth wins, the importance of feature education, and whether or not all product teams should actually be growth teams.
Top Takeaways
🛠 The shift in mindset that comes with "growth engineering" — it's about a greater focus on the user and a willingness to go a little faster than usual...
🌀 While chaos in an app business may be unavoidable, the secret is learning to embrace "managed chaos"
🔬 How the key to growth is testing — and creating a safe space where it's possible to test every idea
👩🏫 Why having employees who use the app every day is both a blessing and a curse (hint: it's connected to the new user experience and feature education)
About Jason van der Merwe
👨💻 Director of Growth Engineering at Strava
💡 “Make it easy enough to test any and every idea.”
👋 LinkedIn | Twitter
Links & Resources
‣ Check out Strava
‣ Work with Strava
‣ Check out Jason’s site and musings o…
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Mar 8, 2023
Channel Experimentation and the Tiktokification of Video Ads — Ryan Watson, onX
On the podcast I talk with Ryan about the TikTokification of video ads, how partnerships help increase the value of premium subscription tiers, and why you should be thinking about retention, not just downloads, when working with influencers.
Top Takeaways
🗣️ User acquisition can be more challenging for apps with niche audiences, which is why you should focus on channels where you can target by interest and search.
🎯 SEO feeds the retargeting funnel more than it drives direct conversions — but keyword data is valuable for product positioning.
🤗 Influencer marketing is extremely effective across the whole marketing funnel — from acquisition to retention — helping to build trust and authenticity.
🦾 Marketing automation is essential for educating users how the product will improve their life once they've gotten into it — especially for more complex products.
🖥️ Apps make more money from web subscriptions, so retarget users to drive them to sign up on the web ra…
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Feb 22, 2023
Top Growth and Monetization Insights for Subscription Apps — Sylvain Gauchet, Babbel and Growth Gems
On the podcast I talk with Sylvain about the top subscription app insights you should be thinking about, how important cohorting is when looking at growth metrics, and why good advice can turn bad if you apply it at the wrong stage.
Top Takeaways
💎 In an early stage, engagement is more important than growth
💎 When looking at retention for your subscription apps, segment your users based on their subscription status
💎 Launching only a monthly plan first can help you improve the product
💎 Gifting is a great way to increase the spend ceiling
💎 You need to ask for the annual upgrade beyond sign up
About Sylvain Gauchet
👨💻 Director of Revenue Strategy at Babbel and founder of Growth Gems
💡 “Whether your onboarding is going to be short — because you get people to experience the background removal — or it's long because you need to sell them on the idea, it's still about convincing them. It’s for you to figure out what’s the best way to convince them.”…
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Feb 8, 2023
The Key Trends and Opportunities for Apps in 2023 — Lexi Sydow, data.ai
On the podcast we talk with Lexi about data.ai’s State of Mobile report, the countries subscription apps should focus on for growth, and why things still look bright for apps despite a decline in overall spend.
Top Takeaways
🕹️ Mobile app spend is down, but that may not be a bad thing
🤳 Non-gaming apps see additional growth with resilient spend
✍️ The subscription model underpins growth for non-gaming apps
📈 Look to non-U.S. markets for new opportunities
💝 The most successful apps will offer frictionless, personalized experiences
About Lexi Sydow
👨💻 Head of Insights at data.ai, a unified data AI company that combines consumer and market data with artificial intelligence to offer insights into trends.
💡 “We’ve gotten to a place where it’s become very native behavior — not just in the app store sense, but even mobile commerce. … It’s those habitual things that we do that reinforce our habits.”
👋 LinkedIn | Twitter
Links & Resources
‣…
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Jan 25, 2023
How to Build a Great Kids App with Minimal Data — Brennan Clark, Sago Mini
On the podcast we talk with Brennan about the challenge of building and growing kids apps in 2022, how to make effective decisions with minimal data, and why AppsFlyer had to build Sago Mini a custom SDK.
Top Takeaways
🧒 Building and growing kids apps is hard
🤔 Making effective decisions with minimal data is a challenge
💕 Find the right partner to invest in solving tough challenges together — especially if it’s a custom job
About Brennan Clark
👨💻 Director of Product at Sago Mini, which has received more than 100 million downloads. The company offers three subscription apps for preschoolers, a recently launched show on Apple TV+, and a physical subscription box.
💡 “We've staked our claim in this high-quality, interactive content — that's our competitive advantage. We invest a lot in creating the best content for kids as possible [and] making sure it's interactive. It's not passive YouTube Kids-style content.”
👋 LinkedIn
Links & Resources
‣ Check o…
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Jan 17, 2023
How’s Your App Really Doing? The State of Subscription Apps 2023
On the podcast we talk about RevenueCat’s State of Subscription Apps report, all the nuance that didn’t make it into the report, and why your app landing in the bottom quartile of some metrics might not be as bad as it seems.
Top Takeaways
🤔 Understand your own business model and unique leverage
📈 Consider the stage of your app when looking at benchmarks
🖐️ 5 key insights: conversions, renewals, retention and more
Links & Resources
‣ The report: State of Subscription Apps 2023
‣ Give us your feedback
‣ One year retention rate insights
‣ Join the RevenueCat team
‣ Follow RevenueCat on Linkedin
‣ Follow RevenueCat on Twitter
Follow us on Twitter
‣ David Barnard
‣ Jacob Eiting
‣ RevenueCat
‣ Sub Club
Episode Highlights
[2:33] The why: RevenueCat is uniquely positioned to measure the data set released in the State of Subscription Apps 2023 report. (By the way, if you don’t want your data set featured in the report, just let us know.)
[7:18] The how…
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Jan 4, 2023
Why You Should Test Everything and How To Do It — Osman Mansur, Duolingo
On the podcast we talk with Osman about Duolingo’s culture of experimentation, data and testing as a moat, and why passive aggressive push notifications actually work in the right context.
Top Takeaways
🧪 Leverage a culture of experimentation to create a top user experience
📊 Data and testing are Duolingo’s best moat
👍 Passive-aggressive push notifications might work in the right context
About Osman Mansur
👨💻 Product Manager (PM) at Duolingo, the global language learning app with close to 60 million active users.
💪 As PM on the retention team, Osman plays a key role in maximizing user engagement and retention through specific mechanics, with a dedicated testing and experimentation regimen.
💡 “Just by the sheer amount of data that we collect, we're really able to drill down and optimize a lot of things on the app. And it keeps us busy as a product team, because there's so much stuff that we know we can improve.”
👋 LinkedIn | Medium
Links & Resource…
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Dec 21, 2022
How Will Apple Play the Digital Markets Act? — John Gruber, Daring Fireball
On the podcast we talk with John about the far reaching implications of the European Union’s Digital Markets Act, how app developers should be thinking about the opportunities created, and why Apple making so much money from the App Store might be bad for Apple long-term.
Top Takeaways
⚖️ The EC’s DMA is set to shake things up in a big way — but how isn’t completely clear
🪟 Don’t panic, app developers — the DMA creates opportunities, too
🤑 The profitability of the App Store might not be good for Apple in the long-term
About John Gruber
👨💻 John runs Daring Fireball, is host of The Talk Show podcast, and co-hosts the Dithering podcast.
💡 “One of the rules in the App Store is that you cannot explain the rules of the App Store in your app.”
👋 Twitter
Links & Resources
‣ Mark Gurman’s article on how Apple is responding to the EU’s DMA
‣ If a Third-Party App Store Falls in the Forest and No One Uses It, Does It Make a Sound?
‣ Check out D…
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Dec 7, 2022
Why You Shouldn’t Let Perfect Be the Enemy of Experimentation — Dan Pannasch, RevenueCat
On the podcast I talk with Dan about how to design experiments that answer the right questions, common A/B testing pitfalls to avoid, and how a simple checklist might just save your complex experiment.
Top Takeaways
🍞 Conclusions from tests sometimes go stale faster than you realize
👌 Minimizing the cost of running tests will improve decision making
🤪 Check your sanity — or don’t live and die by statistical significance
About Dan Pannasch
👨💻 Senior Product Manager at RevenueCat
💪 Dan saw what experimentation looked like across a portfolio of app businesses when his previous company TelTech’s success led to an acquisition by IAC. He joined RevenueCat in May 2022 and leads the Experiments project.
💡 “You could change the color [of the buy button in A/B testing and] release it in the new application. And if you can't tell which one won [with users], then you learned that it doesn't matter. You didn't learn which one won, but you did learn that it doesn't…
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Nov 23, 2022
Why More Apps Need To Be More Than Just Apps — Melissa Cash & Félix Boudreau, Pok Pok
On the podcast I talk with Melissa and Félix about why more apps should be more than just apps, the benefits of a hard paywall, and why a lower price might actually make you more money even if the A/B test shows it didn’t.
Top Takeaways
📱 More apps should be more than just apps
💳 Hard paywalls can (and do) sometimes pay off
💵 How a price change can lead to big returns — if the quality is there
About Melissa Cash & Félix Boudreau
👨💻 Melissa is Co-Founder and CEO and Félix is Head of Growth at Pok Pok
💪 Their first app, Pok Pok Playroom, is an Apple Design Award-winning preschool app that sparks creativity and imagination through open-ended play
💡 “It's important to think about your updates from a content and subscription value point of view, but also from a marketing point of view, and really try to balance those narratives.” — Melissa
👋 Melissa on LinkedIn | Melissa on Twitter | Félix on LinkedIn
Links & Resources
‣ Pok Pok Playroom
‣ Wat…
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Nov 9, 2022
How Ethical Design at Blinkist Led to 23% Growth – Jaycee Day
On the podcast we talk with Jaycee about how Blinkist increased trial starts by 23%, how to balance user experience with business objectives, and why telling people how to cancel can actually lead to fewer cancellations.
Top Takeaways
⚖️ Balancing ethics and business means making tough decisions, but taking a smart approach lets you master both
🤝 Helping people unsubscribe isn’t the most intuitive thing for subscription app businesses, but ethical design patterns might be better for business in the long run
🔎 Transparency around the cancellation process can drive app success in multiple ways
About Jaycee Day
👨💻 Senior Product Designer at developer platform GitHub and previously at Blinkist
💪 Jaycee facilitated a sign-up increase of 23% following customer service complaints (which also dropped by 55%) at Blinkist. Even Apple took notice of her ethical design pattern
💡 “It's because of the transparency and the trust. … People have been burned so many time…
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Oct 26, 2022
How Consumer Subscriptions May Perform in a Recession — Eric Crowley, GP Bullhound
On the podcast we talk with Eric about the largest consumer marketplace that’s ever existed, the growing exit opportunities for Consumer Subscription Software businesses, and why the CSS industry may be relatively recession-proof.
Top Takeaways
👀 Simply occupying eyeballs isn’t the game plan anymore
💰The CSS space could be recession-proof
👴 The data and tooling landscape has matured, making it easier to build and grow subscription businesses
About Eric Crowley
👔 Partner at GP Bullhound, a global technology investment and advisory firm for entrepreneurs and founders
👨💻 Coming from an executive software startup background, Eric primarily focuses on M&A, capital raises, and advisory transactions at the firm
💡 “If the entire focus of your team is adding value and not just making sure information flows from stack one to stack two, you're going to build a better business, because you're out there listening to your customer [and] watching them use your service…
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Oct 12, 2022
How Elevate Labs Hit Cash Flow Positive in 2022 — Andrew Maguire, Elevate Labs
On the podcast we talk with Andrew about the journey to cash flow positive for Elevate Labs, the importance of creative, and why spending less money can sometimes be the key to figuring out paid user acquisition.
Top Takeaways
📈 The journey to cash flow positive is a long one, demanding tough decisions along the way
💵 Spending less money can sometimes be the key to figuring out paid user acquisition
🎨 Control and collaboration are key elements of a creative culture
About Andrew Maguire
⚙️ Chief Operating Officer at Elevate Labs and Managing Partner at Volo Ventures
💪 Andrew saw Elevate move from rolling back on ad spend in order to survive, to becoming cash flow positive with record growth in 2022.
💡 “How do you have values that are not just the poster on the wall that no one cares about, but are actually lived in the organization?”
👋 LinkedIn and Twitter
Links & Resources
‣ Join the Elevate Labs team
‣ Connect with Andrew on Linkedin
‣ Follow Andrew…
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Sep 28, 2022
From Spreadsheets to Data Science: Tools for Apps of Any Size — Adam Landis, AdLibertas
On the podcast we talk with Adam about when and why to use an MMP, which subscription events to track in your analytics, and why A/B testing doesn’t always work the way you think it works.
Top Takeaways
📏 Understand what your users are doing to help define — and then achieve — your goal
📈 Spreadsheets are a great start, but growing sophistication requires something more long-term
🔧 Turning events into actions is difficult but necessary
About Adam Landis
👨💻 Founder and CEO at AdLibertas
💪 Adam has helped hundreds of apps — including Crossy Road, Temple Run and Audio Mac — influence user behavior through data collection and analysis.
💡 “How do you make sense of all this data that's coming out of the app? How do you understand what users are doing? What is the impact? And then what is the outcome of the changes you make?”
👋 LinkedIn | AdLibertas
Links & Resources
‣ Learn more about AdLibertas
‣ Read AdLibertas updates from Adam
‣ Follow Ad…
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Sep 14, 2022
From Zero Revenue to a Full-Time Gig in Less Than a Year — Emmanuel Crouvisier, CardPointers
On the podcast we talk with Emmanuel about the magic of affiliate marketing, how to best use Stripe payments, and why you should probably build a web app before you build a native one.
Top Takeaways
✉️ Don’t skip user registration — and do it early in onboarding
💰 The road to subscription revenue isn’t a straight one
📈 The little things add up over time
About Emmanuel Crouvisier
👨💻 Founder at CardPointers, an app that makes it easy to optimize credit card rewards and has saved users over $200M.
💪 Emmanuel used affiliate marketing and a revenue share model to increase user retention, simultaneously rewarding loyalty and content creator talent.
💡 “Keep your costs really low. […] The companies that have been in this space before never last more than two years because they need a team of [up to] 30 people to run everything. Whereas [with CardPointers], it's just me, and my costs are literally hundreds of dollars per month — so it makes it easy for me…
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Aug 31, 2022
Building a Product Improvement Loop — Darrell Stone, Citizen
On the podcast I talk with Darrell about going from zero to an 8-figure ARR in just 18 months, building a product improvement loop combining user research and A/B testing, and why expecting failure is one of the keys to success.
Top Takeaways
📈 Going from 0 to an 8-figure ARR in 18 months is doable
🙈 Sharing and selling data isn’t necessary to build and scale subscription apps
🎰 Structuring product development as a “bet” liberates you from needing to be right
About Darrell Stone
👨💻 Head of Product & Design at Citizen, the number one public safety app in the U.S.
💪 Darrell defined and scaled Citizen's consumer subscription product with a dual focus on acquisition and retentive, life-saving features.
💡 “Product [development] in consumer tech is very much a team sport. You have to approach it through the mindset that you're building a team that's going to win a thing.”
👋 LinkedIn and Twitter
Links & Resources
‣ Citizen App
‣ Citizen’s Career…
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Aug 10, 2022
Tinder: From Free App to $1B in Revenue — Phil Schwarz, Corazon Capital
On the podcast we talk with Phil about the thesis behind Tinder’s monetization strategy, the importance of product differentiation, and why some companies shouldn’t use subscriptions.
Our guest today is Phil Schwarz, Partner at Corazon Capital, a leading Chicago-based venture fund investing in early stage tech companies. Prior to joining Corazon, Phil served as the Chief Marketing Officer at Tinder during the rollout of subscriptions. He was also previously Head of Growth Initiatives at Match Group.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* 3 key innovations that propelled Tinder’s growth
* Tips for optimizing your paywall strategy
* How Tinder transitioned to a subscription-based model
Links & Resources
* Corazon’s website
* Follow Corazon on Twitter
* Corazon’s LinkedIn page
* Contact Corazon
Phil’s Links
* Phil’s LinkedIn page
Follow us on Twitter:
* David Barnard
* Jacob Eiting
* RevenueCat
* Sub Club
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Jul 27, 2022
Brand Marketing, Product-Market Fit, & App Growth — Gessica Bicego, Paired
On the podcast we talk with Gessica about how to think about brand marketing for apps, finding product/channel/messaging fit, and why you shouldn’t even refer to Bill Gates in an ad campaign.
Our guest today is Gessica Bicego, Chief Marketing Officer at Paired, the #1 app for couples. Prior to joining Paired, Gessica spent 6 years leading performance marketing and growth at Blinkist.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* How to build a moat around your brand
* Paired’s growth stack & favorite data collection tools
* Tips for allocating ad spending & measuring advertising campaigns
* Why Bill Gates sent Gessica a cease and desist letter
Links & Resources
* Albert
* Taboola
* Runtastic
* Fivetran
* Amplitude
* RevenueCat
* Snowflake
* Looker
* Phiture’s Mobile Growth Nightmares podcast
* Sub Club Podcast episode 39: 8 Principles for Sustainable Growth — Sean Ellis & Ethan Garr, Breakout Growth
Gessica’s Links
* Get Paired
* Current job openin…
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Jul 13, 2022
Running Effective In-App Experiments — Giancarlo Musetti, Ad Hoc Labs
On the podcast we talk with Giancarlo about soft vs. hard paywalls, how to think about product experiments, and why removing friction from onboarding didn’t actually help.
Our guest today is Giancarlo Musetti, Growth Product Manager at Ad Hoc Labs. Ad Hoc Labs makes several apps including Firewall and Dialed, but is most well known for Burner, an app that allows you to create multiple phone numbers to protect your privacy and better manage communication.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* How to make a smooth transition to a subscription-based model
* Tips for optimizing your paywall
* How to boost your app’s growth and user base
* Giancarlo’s three-step process for testing new strategies and features
Giancarlo’s Links
* Ad Hoc Labs’ website
* Burner app
* Firewall app
* Dialed app
* Ad Hoc Labs’ hiring page
* Giancarlo’s LinkedIn page
Follow us on Twitter:
* David Barnard
* Jacob Eiting
* RevenueCat
* Sub Club
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Jun 29, 2022
A Systematic Approach to Paywall Optimization — Live at App Promotion Summit NYC
On the podcast we talk with Darrell and Jake about optimizing your app’s paywall, how to increase revenue by giving users a better experience, tips for pricing your app, and how to reduce subscriber churn.
We’re with Darrell Stone and Jake Mor in front of a live audience at the App Promotion Summit in New York City. The App Promotion Summit is America’s leading app marketing conference. Darrell is the Head of Product & Design at Citizen, the number one public safety app in the U.S. Jake is the Founder & CEO of Superwall, the best way to build in test paywalls without having to update your app.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Where to put your app’s paywall
* Which features should you paywall?
* When to paywall all of your app’s features
* A clever way to win back users who cancel their subscription
Links & Resources
* RevenueCat
* Previous webinar with Jake on YouTube
Jake Mor’s Links
* Follow Jake on Twitter
* Superwall’s website
* Follow Supe…
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Jun 15, 2022
Building a Community that Demands an App — Mark Kennedy & Jeff Bailey, None to Run
On the podcast we talk with Mark and Jeff about community led growth, how they improved trial starts by 25%, and why running ads for a blog post might actually perform better than sending people directly to the App Store.
Mark is an RRCA Certified Distance Running Coach and created None to Run as a blog and personal outlet to stay in touch with his passion for exercise science and healthy living. Jeff has been developing iOS apps since 2009 and teamed up with Mark to build an app as the None to Run community started to take off and requests for an app could no longer be ignored.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* How to build momentum for your app
* Don’t launch your app until you’ve done this
* Tips for growing your audience
* How None to Run reached an 80% conversion rate
Links & Resources
* Mighty Networks
* Sub Club podcast episode 35: From Indie Side Project to $1M in ARR — Curtis Herbert, Slopes
* Ariel from Appfigures
* Lisa Jhung
Jeff & Mark’s Link…
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May 25, 2022
8 Principles for Sustainable Growth — Sean Ellis & Ethan Garr, Breakout Growth
On the podcast I talk with Sean and Ethan about the importance of a north star metric, optimizing for speed to value, and why product/market fit needs to be dialed in over time.
Sean has worked on growth at some of the fastest growing companies in the world, like Dropbox, Lookout, and Eventbrite. He not only coined the term “growth hacking”, but literally wrote the book on it. Today, Sean helps companies around the globe accelerate customer and revenue growth through workshops, keynote presentations, and select advising roles.
Ethan got his start in subscription apps working on product at TelTech, which was acquired by IAC in 2018. He co-invented and led the company's flagship app, RoboKiller and helped to grow TelTech's other top communications apps including TrapCall and TapeACall. Ethan now helps companies improve their growth trajectories through workshops, coaching, and as a trusted advisor.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Sean & Ethan’s proven principles for achiev…
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May 11, 2022
Scaling Without a Marketing Budget — Mike Overell, ClassDojo
On the podcast we talk with Mike about building a principled, mission driven app, keeping product development focused on the right customers, and how ClassDojo scaled to tens of millions of downloads without a marketing budget.
Our guest today is Mike Overell, Revenue Lead at ClassDojo. Having founded his own company as well as working at McKinsey and Lyft, Mike is now using that experience to help every kid on earth get an education they love with ClassDojo. Mike also invests in and helps foreign founders crack the US as co-founder of investment collective Antipodes.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* How ClassDojo reached 50M users with zero marketing spend
* Tips for setting up the right paywall for your app
* How to monetize your app without impeding growth
* ClassDojo’s user-led growth strategy
Mike Overell’s Links
* Follow Mike on Twitter
* ClassDojo’s website
* Follow ClassDojo on Twitter
* ClassDojo’s jobs page
* Mike’s LinkedIn page
Follow us…
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Apr 27, 2022
Creative App Marketing Strategies — Cliff Weitzman, Speechify
On the podcast we talk with Cliff about the benefits of building for a niche, the one ad that changed things for Speechify, and why Cliff is now hiring comedians.
Our guest today is Cliff Weitzman, the founder and CEO of Speechify. As someone with dyslexia, Cliff built Speechify to help himself learn by having text read aloud. Cliff went on to blitzscale Speechify with an irreverent approach to SaaS norms and a willingness to experiment.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* How Cliff found early traction for Speechify
* Unconventional ways to build a great team
* How Cliff got marketing tips from the top e-commerce CEOs
* The art of successful cold calls
Cliff Weitzman’s Links
* Speechify’s website
* Speechify for iOS
* Speechify Chrome extension
* Speechify on Google Play
* Follow Speechify on Twitter
* Follow Speechify on Instagram
* Speechify is on Medium
* Check out Speechify on YouTube
* Speechify’s LinkedIn page
* Cliff Weitzman: Read to You o…
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Apr 13, 2022
The Rise of Consumer SaaS — Eric Stromberg, Bedrock
On the podcast we talk with Eric about the importance of refining your pitch, how to build a moat in consumer SaaS, and why your month one churn might not be as bad as you think.
Our guest today is Eric Stromberg, the Founder & Managing Partner of Bedrock, a technology investment firm currently managing approximately one billion dollars. The firm has made investments in companies like Flock Safety, Plaid, Cameo, The Athletic, and more. Eric is also the Founder of Check, the payroll infrastructure API and Universe Software, the holding company for Vertical Fintech businesses.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Why higher churn rates at launch are OK
* How to maintain a competitive advantage for your subscription app
* Why Eric is bullish about the future of Consumer SaaS
Links & Resources
* Barry McCarthy
* Sub Club podcast episode 031: Growth, Revenue, and Marketing Strategies for Your App — Lisa Kennelly, Fishbrain
* Equilab
Eric Stromberg’s Links
* Eric's web…
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Mar 30, 2022
From Indie Side Project to $1M in ARR — Curtis Herbert, Slopes
On the podcast we talk with Curtis about his 9 year journey to reach $1M in ARR, why he shares revenue numbers publicly, and how taking inspiration from web businesses instead of other apps kept him ahead of the curve.
Our guest today is Curtis Herbert, an independent iOS app developer/designer/wearer of many hats. Curtis is the founder of Slopes, the app for skiing and snowboarding, and he took it from an indie side project to a thriving business.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Marketing tips for consistent growth
* How Curtis transitioned Slopes to a subscription model
* Which tools and strategies had the biggest impact on Slopes’ success
* The tradeoffs of hiring employees as an indie developer
Links & Resources
* Tableau
* Vero
* Firebase
Curtis Herbert’s Links
* Slopes app
* Follow Curtis on Twitter
* Curtis’ website
Follow us on Twitter:
* David Barnard
* Jacob Eiting
* RevenueCat
* Sub Club
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Mar 16, 2022
Operating a Portfolio of 40 Apps — Michael Ritter, Maple Media
On the podcast we talk with Michael about operating a portfolio of almost 40 apps, the importance of delivering value to customers, and why you should never use teal on your paywall.
Joining me today is Michael Ritter, CEO and Founder at Maple Media. Michael and his growing team acquire and operate category-leading consumer apps. Popular Maple Media apps include: Pic Stitch, Weather Hi-Def Radar, Dialog, We Heart It, Player FM, WeekCal, and many more.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Why customer support is crucial for subscription apps
* How to price your subscription based on the value it provides
* Tips for integrating ads into your subscription revenue model
* How to 10X your money on an app acquisition
Michael Ritter’s Links
* Michael’s LinkedIn page
* Maple Media
Follow us on Twitter:
* David Barnard
* Jacob Eiting
* RevenueCat
* Sub Club
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Mar 2, 2022
Subscription App Trends and How To Grow in 2022
On today’s podcast we’re hosting the Subscription Trends 2022 event. We talk with Thomas and Eric about navigating content fortresses as a developer. They share their thoughts on regulating Apple’s App Store, affiliate marketing, and breakout trends for 2022. We also talk about Web3 and Crypto, and answer questions from folks in the event’s chat room.
Our guests on the show are Thomas Petit and Eric Seufert. Eric has a depth and breadth of experience with mobile apps and games that few can match. Over the past year, Eric has written extensively about App Tracking Transparency and the future of mobile advertising on his trade blog, Mobile Dev Memo.
Thomas Petit is a world-renowned mobile growth expert independent consultant. Thomas began his work in the subscription app space, eventually becoming a freelance consultant, and has worked with several large subscription apps.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* How to make a living as a solo app developer
* Are web apps the f…
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Feb 16, 2022
Lessons From an Unlimited Marketing Budget — Colette Nataf, MileIQ & Lightning AI
On the podcast we talk with Colette about selling MileIQ to Microsoft then buying it back, experimenting with an unlimited marketing budget, and unlocking higher retention with a focus on prosumers.
Our guest today is Colette Nataf, Head of Growth at MileIQ and Co-Founder of Lightning AI. From founding multiple startups to spending more than $100M on marketing in growth roles at several great companies, Colette has spent her career using data science to grow businesses.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Colette’s take on Apple’s ATT and its effect on marketing
* Outsourcing to an outside agency vs. growing your team
* Analyzing lifetime value and customer acquisition cost for long-term subscribers
* How to balance your business and family life
Colette Nataf’s Links
* Colette Nataf’s LinkedIn page
* MileIQ
* Lightning AI
* Colette's maternity leave blog post
Follow us on Twitter:
* David Barnard
* Jacob Eiting
* RevenueCat
* Sub Club
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Jan 19, 2022
Growth, Revenue, and Marketing Strategies for Your App — Lisa Kennelly, Fishbrain
On the podcast we talk with Lisa about marketing an app with no revenue, the challenges of adding new revenue streams, and the importance of brand marketing in a post IDFA world.
Our guest today is Lisa Kennelly, Chief Marketing Officer at Fishbrain, the #1 app for people who love fishing. At Fishbrain, Lisa manages a team of 20 people, and is responsible for everything from brand positioning and product marketing to business development and e-commerce. Lisa also mentors startup founders on marketing and strategy.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* How to make the transition from growth to revenue
* Finding additional revenue opportunities beyond subscriptions
* Tips for balancing brand awareness marketing and performance marketing
Links & Resources
* VSCO
* Clue
Lisa Kennelly’s Links
* Lisa’s LinkedIn
* Follow Fishbrain on Twitter
* Fishbrain’s website
* Fishbrain Is on Instagram
* Fishbrain’s Facebook page
Follow us on Twitter:
* David Barnard…
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Jan 5, 2022
How To Not Screw Up Switching Your App to Subscriptions — Matt Ronge, Astropad
On the podcast we talk with Matt about how to not screw up switching your app to subscriptions, why offering lifetime subscriptions might not be a great option, and what it’s like when Apple ‘sherlocks’ your product.
Our guest today is Matt Ronge, co-founder and CEO of Astropad. Having worked at Apple, Garmin, and founded several companies of his own, Matt is an experienced engineer and entrepreneur with a passion for building creative tools.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* How to switch your app from paid to subscriptions
* Should you offer lifetime subscriptions?
* Why you should be charging more for your app’s subscription
* Tips for limiting subscriber churn
Links & Resources
* Garmin
* Giovanni Donelli
Matt Ronge’s Links
* Follow Matt Ronge on Twitter
* Matt's blog
* Matt’s blog post: How NOT to screw up switching your app to subscriptions
* Matt’s podcast
* Astropad
* Luna Display
Follow us on Twitter:
* David Barnard
* Jacob…
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Dec 13, 2021
The 4 Foundational Frameworks of Consumer SaaS — Robbie Kellman Baxter, Peninsula Strategies
On the podcast we talk with Robbie about finding your super users, the real reasons for subscription fatigue, and why pricing isn’t as important as you might think, especially early on.
Our guest today is Robbie Kellman Baxter, consultant, keynote speaker, and author. She’s advised many of the world’s leading subscription-based companies, including serving on the advisory board of Strava. Her most recent book, “The Forever Transaction” is a deep dive into everything consumer subscription, and a must read for anyone in the space.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Identifying and attracting lifetime value customers
* How to get and maintain customer loyalty
* Three causes of subscription fatigue
* Why customers cancel their subscriptions
Links & Resources
* Strava
* Intuit
* Survey Monkey
* Oracle
* The Subscription Economy
* Tien Tzuo: Subscribed
* Eric Crowley
* Seth Miller
* CrossFit
* Shopify
* Calm
* Matthieu Rouif
* PhotoRoom
* Go…
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Dec 1, 2021
How to Thrive Despite Apple’s ATT — Eric Seufert, Mobile Dev Memo
On the podcast I talk with Eric about the value destruction of App Tracking Transparency, the limitations of SKAdNetwork, and how to thrive as an app developer in this new paradigm.
My guest today is Eric Seufert. Eric has deep operating experience, having worked in growth and strategy roles at consumer tech companies such as Wooga and Rovio, but he also founded and sold a marketing business intelligence company, Agamemnon, and is an active investor in the mobile gaming and ad tech categories. Eric has a depth and breadth of experience with mobile apps and games that few can match. Over the past year Eric has written extensively about App Tracking Transparency and the future of mobile advertising on his trade blog, Mobile Dev Memo.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Will Apple’s ATT be a net loss for Apple?
* Can SKAdNetwork be saved, and does Apple want to save it?
* Is focusing on organic traffic a flawed strategy?
* What does the future of app install ads look like?
Li…
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Nov 17, 2021
Growing an App to 1M Paid Subscribers — Ron Schneidermann, AllTrails
On the podcast, we talk with Ron about the magic of consumer subscriptions, experimenting with freemium strategies, and how private equity isn’t always as bad as you’ve been led to believe.
Our guest today is Ron Schneidermann, CEO at AllTrails, the ultimate guide for outdoor adventures. AllTrails was early to the consumer subscription space, launching a $3/month premium tier way back in 2012. Ron joined as CMO and COO in 2015, and then took over as CEO in 2019, helping to grow AllTrails to over 1 million subscribers and tens of millions of active users worldwide.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* How to refine and optimize your freemium strategy
* Two things you need to keep an eye on as a founder
* The pros & cons of outside funding vs. organic growth
* How Ron fast-tracked AllTrails’ profitability
Links & Resources
* Accenture
* Hotwire
* Yelp
* Liftopia
* Alex Honnold
* Spectrum Equity
Ron Schneidermann’s Links
* Ron Schneidermann’s LinkedIn…
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Oct 27, 2021
Optimizing Your Subscription App for Growth — Eric Crowley, GP Bullhound
Our guest today is Eric Crowley, a tech investment banker with GP Bullhound. With investments in companies ranging from Spotify to Whoop, and clients such as AllTrails, Pinkbike, and Lingoda, GP Bullhound provides transaction advice and capital to many of the leaders in the Consumer Subscription Software space.
On the podcast we talk with Eric about his 2021 report on Consumer Subscription Software, the truth about LTV calculations, and the new era of organic user acquisition.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Was 2020 just a “COVID Bump,” or a shift in consumer behavior?
* Are the Bumble & Duolingo IPO multiples justified?
* How savvy developers are adapting to Apple’s App Tracking Transparency
* The truth about LTV
* The new era of customer acquisition
Links & Resources
* Spotify
* Whoop
* AllTrails
* Pinkbike
* Lingoda
* Bumble
* Duolingo
* Instacart
* Match Group
* Netflix
* Noom
* Weight Watchers
* Tinder
* The Dyrt
* Day One Jou…
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Oct 6, 2021
From Bootstrapping to Partnering With Sony — Seth Miller, Rapchat
Our guest today is Seth Miller, Founder and CEO at Rapchat. Seth is on a mission to democratize music creation with Rapchat’s mobile app. Rapchat takes the friction out of making music, and has helped millions of artists unleash their creativity.
Seth earned his bachelor’s degree in business administration, with an emphasis on management information systems, from Ohio University. Before founding Rapchat, Seth worked as a consultant for Adidas, and an IT Systems Engineer.
On the podcast we talk with Seth about bootstrapping his way to signs of product market fit, raising money from strategic partners like Sony Music, and what it’s like to have Facebook completely rip off your app.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Finding the right niche for your app
* Bootstrapping and early funding
* Using the right marketing channels for your app
* Filtering out the wrong users for your app's paid features
* How to transition your app from free to paid
Links & Resources
* Son…
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Sep 15, 2021
Finding Product Market Fit by Unbundling Photoshop — Matthieu Rouif, PhotoRoom
Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »
Matthieu Rouif is the co-founder and CEO of PhotoRoom. PhotoRoom enables anyone to create studio-quality photos on their iPhone. Before founding PhotoRoom, Matthieu was the Senior Project Manager at GoPro. Matthieu is also the co-founder and CTO of HeyCrowd, and co-founder and CEO of As-App.
Matthieu earned his graduate degree in materials science and engineering from Stanford University, and his bachelor’s degrees in economics, and physics from École Polytechnique. While at École Polytechnique, Matthieu was a member of the skydiving team and debate team. Matthieu also served as a Parachutist Commando Officer in the French Air Force.
Matthieu started developing apps in 2009 as a student at Stanford, and subsequently started two iPhone app companies. He was part of the Replay app team when they won App of the Year in 2014. Matthieu started PhotoRoom after leaving GoPro in 2018.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Matthieu’s…
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Sep 7, 2021
Apple’s App Store Conundrum — Ben Thompson, Stratechery
On the podcast, we talk with Ben about all things app stores. From Apple’s revolutionary launch of the App Store in 2008 to the monopoly-like powers both Google and Apple now wield today. With multiple lawsuits filed, government investigations ongoing, and developer sentiment at an all-time low, we take an honest look at the challenges and trade-offs in trying to bring two of the world’s largest companies to heel.
Ben Thompson's Links
* Stratechery
* Ben’s Twitter: @benthompson
Follow Us:
David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnard
Jacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeiting
RevenueCat: https://twitter.com/RevenueCat
Sub Club: https://twitter.com/SubClubHQ
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Aug 25, 2021
How Apple’s App Tracking Transparency Affects Developers — Shamanth Rao, RocketShip HQ
Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »
Shamanth Rao is the founder and CEO at Rocketship HQ. Shamanth also hosts the Mobile User Acquisition Show podcast, and is the lead instructor for the Mobile Growth Lab workshop series.
RocketShip HQ is a boutique growth marketing firm with 8 figures in managed spend. Before founding RocketshipHQ, Shamanth led growth marketing resulting in 3 exits: Bash Gaming (sold for $170mm), Puzzle Social (acquired by Zynga), and FreshPlanet (acquired by Gameloft). Shamanth has also helped many other mobile apps grow and scale.
Shamanth is passionate about teaching and sharing everything he’s learned about mobile growth. Much of his time and energy goes into the Mobile User Acquisition Show. Shamanth strives to ensure that the wisdom he’s gained reaches as many people as possible.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* The history of user acquisition and algorithmic targeting
* How Apple’s AppTrackingTransparency has shifted users to And…
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Aug 11, 2021
The TikTok Marketing Playbook — Maddie Kirby, 1 Second Everyday
Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »
Maddie Kirby is currently the Senior Social Media Manager for the video journal app, 1 Second Everyday. Maddie started her social media marketing career at Ozwest. Ozwest is an exclusive distributor of Zing branded toy products and the Ozwest toy line in the USA and Canada.
While working at Ozwest, Maddie started growing her personal social media presence. Maddie has almost 400k followers on TikTok. Since joining 1 Second Everyday in 2019, Maddie has been instrumental in leveraging TikTok to organically drive millions of downloads.
Maddie has a bachelor’s degree in advertising from the University of Oregon, and has also worked for companies such as Bytedance, Inc., Egg Strategy, Transition Productions, and Atomicus Films.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* How to promote your app with user-created content
* Clever tricks to get your app noticed
* Why TikTok is a great place to market your app
* A great strategy for growi…
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Jul 28, 2021
Growth Tactics from the Top Apps in the App Store — Andy Carvell, Phiture
Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »
Andy Carvell is the Partner & Co-Founder of Phiture, a mobile growth agency. Here he has worked with some of the biggest apps on the App Store, including Headspace, Spotify, Triller, and VSCO.
Prior to founding Phiture, Andy worked on the marketing and growth teams at SoundCloud. His team built SoundCloud's activity notification system, which delivered over 500 million pushes per month, and increased M1 retention by five percentage points in its first few months of operation.
Andy has been in the mobile industry since the late ‘90s, when he started working at Nokia. Andy has a deep interest in technology, strategy and the execution of ideas.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* Andy’s user retention techniques
* The most overlooked component in marketing your app
* How to optimize your customer’s App Store experience
* Andy’s formula for maximizing your app’s notification strategy
Links & Resources
* SoundCloud…
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Jul 14, 2021
Next-Level App Marketing Tips and Strategies — Alex Ross, Greg
Watch the video version of this show on YouTube »
Alex Ross is the co-founder & CEO at Gregarious, Inc. Gregarious is the company behind Greg, an app dedicated to helping people grow healthier and happier plants. Greg’s community has grown from 100 beta users in August 2020 to over 50,000 monthly active users today.
Alex graduated from the University of California, Los Angeles, and studied data science and statistics at MIT. Alex has worked for companies such as Cisco, The Daily Aztec, and Cannon Trading.
Prior to founding Gregarious, Alex spent 4 years as Director of Engineering at Tinder. Alex also co-founded Enplug, a digital signage company that was acquired earlier this year.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* The two critical steps in making a successful app
* An ingenious strategy for partnering your app with retail companies
* Why you should involve your customers in content creation
Links & Resources
* Tinder
* Enplug
* fitbod app
* Y Combinator (YC)…
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Jun 30, 2021
Lessons Learned From 50 Million Downloads — David Smith, Widgetsmith
David Smith is a full-time independent app developer. Since 2006, David has owned and operated a small company focusing on creating applications for the iPhone and Apple Watch.
David has built many successful apps over the years. His most recent app, Widgetsmith, went viral and hit #1 on the App Store. It has over 50 million downloads. David’s other successful apps include Watchsmith, Pedometer++, and Sleep++.
David also co-hosts a weekly podcast called Under the Radar, where he and his co-host Mario Arment discuss Apple-related topics.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
* How to transition from a hobbyist to a full-time app developer
* Two big mistakes to avoid when starting out as an app developer
* How customers find new apps in 2021
* The biggest waste of time and money for an app developer
Links & Resources
* The LibriVox project
* Mirror app
* Launch Center Pro app
David Smith’s Links
* David’s Website
* Audiobooks app
* Widgetsmith app
* Wa…
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Jun 23, 2021
Quantifying Apple’s Developer Sentiment Problem — Ben Bajarin, Creative Strategies
Our guest today is Ben Bajarin, CEO and Principal Analyst at Creative Strategies. For the past 20 years, Ben has been studying the consumer tech market and providing actionable insight and strategic recommendations to many of the top technology companies in the world.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
* The results from Ben’s survey of iOS developers
* Why positive developer sentiment is invaluable to platform owners
* How much developers think is fair for Apple to charge
Follow Us:
David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnard
Jacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeiting
Ben Bajarin: https://twitter.com/BenBajarin
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May 19, 2021
How to Sell Your App — Eric Owens, App Business Brokers
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
* The pros and cons of selling an app on your own versus going through a broker
* What to watch out for during negotiations
* What to expect after selling your app
Follow Us:
David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnard
Jacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeiting
Eric Owens: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericowens/
Here’s the Outline of Our Interview with Eric:
(1:00) Eric and David have worked together before!
(1:25) How Eric became an app broker.
(5:09) The top reasons app developers decide to sell their businesses; capital gains taxes; David’s experience selling his first app.
(8:03) Why people buy app businesses.
(10:11) Do app buyers typically purchase successful apps or fixer-uppers?
(13:35) The benefits of selling a successful app “prematurely;” David’s Mirror app.
(15:25) The challenges of selling iOS apps: iCloud, Passbook, Sign In with Apple, Catalyst; Gas Cubby.
(19:13) How app business valuations are calculated…
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May 5, 2021
From Sleep Devices for NFL Athletes to a $500k ARR Subscription App — Leon Sasson, Rise Science
Our guest today is Leon Sasson, Co-Founder & CTO at Rise Science, a company dedicated to helping people overcome sleep challenges, feel better, and be more productive.
Since its inception in 2014, Rise has primarily focused on elite athletes, helping some of the top NFL, NBA, and college football teams with their sleep. But in 2019 they decided to enter the consumer subscription space, which became even more important in 2020 as COVID challenged their B2B model. Leon and the team at Rise went from no experience in consumer subscriptions in late 2019 to over $500k in ARR today.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
* The blurring line between B2B and consumer SaaS
* A/B testing and subscription lifestyle analysis
* How to create a fantastic onboarding experience for your users
Follow Us:
David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnard
Jacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeiting
Leon Sasson: https://twitter.com/leonsasson
Here’s the Outline of Our Interview with Leon:
(1:25)…
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Apr 22, 2021
Revisiting the Fundamentals of App Marketing Post IDFA — Thomas Petit
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
* Why most apps should do at least some paid user acquisition
* How paid user acquisition has evolved over the past decade
* How to think about marketing in the post-IDFA era
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Apr 8, 2021
Building an Apple Design Award-Winning Photo Editing App — Majd Taby & Jasper Hauser, Darkroom
Our guests today are Majd Taby and Jasper Hauser, co-founders of the Apple Design Award-winning app, Darkroom.
Prior to founding Darkroom, Majd spent time at Apple, Facebook, and Instagram working as a product-focused engineer. Alongside Darkroom, Majd has also published a photobook documenting the Syrian Refugee Crisis.
Jasper is a 3-time Apple Design Award winner, with 18 years of industry experience in creating digital products and mentoring people. Prior to founding Darkroom with Majd, Jasper founded Sofa, which was acquired by Facebook in 2011.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
* What Apple looks for in a featured app
* Why getting press isn’t always great for conversions
* The benefits and drawbacks of bootstrapping your app
Follow Us:
David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnard
Jacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeiting
Majd Taby: https://twitter.com/jtaby
Jasper Hauser: https://twitter.com/jasperhauser
Here’s the Outline of Our Interview with Majd and Ja…
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Mar 24, 2021
Going All-In on Indie App Development — Ryan Jones, Weather Line & Flighty
Our guest today is Ryan Jones, long-time indie developer of Weather Line and Flighty. Before going full-time on his apps in 2019, Ryan spent time in operations at Apple and as Entrepreneur-in-Residence at McGarrah Jessee, a full-service product marketing agency.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
(3:53) Ryan’s background in mechanical engineering and the oil industry.
(6:35) Ryan’s first app, Weather Line, hit #12 in the App Store
(11:09) Weather Line’s Super Forecast
(16:21) Networking with famous app bloggers as a growth hack; the “reply guy”
(34:41) The fine line between zero tracking and anonymous tracking.
(44:31) Integrating customer feedback into your app; user studies.
(46:22) Ryan’s controversial opinion on customer support.
Follow Us:
David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnard
Jacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeiting
Ryan Jones: https://twitter.com/rjonesy
Quotes:
“When I talk to people about apps… the first thing that they say is, ‘What makes…
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Mar 10, 2021
How to Pitch Your App to Tech Journalists — Ed Zitron, EZPR
Our guest today is Ed Zitron, the founder and CEO of EZPR, a media relations company based in San Francisco. Ed has worked with everyone from drone-maker Skydio to game-maker PUBG to app-maker SmartNews. He has a unique approach to media relations and is quite effective at helping his clients get results.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
(4:41) Why PR is so much more difficult these days; Facebook; Cambridge Analytica; Theranos.
(11:37) Joanna Stern may be the best tech journalist working today; The Verge; Engadget.
(12:55) Does cold emailing tech journalists still work?; DoNotPay.
(16:42) How to pitch your app to a tech journalist; Sarah Perez.
(18:38) Getting press coverage in large vs. niche publications; catering to journalists’ interests; Skydio.
(26:40) Make it super easy for tech journalists to write about your app; hero images.
(27:57) You should hire a PR agency if you truly have a special app; Wyze; Meater.
(30:04) Don’t waste money on a press release—you…
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Feb 17, 2021
Pioneering a New Genre of Audio App — Faye Keegan, Dipsea
Our guest today is Faye Keegan, co-founder and CTO of Dipsea. Part technology company and part story studio, Dipsea is the first audio platform for women's sexual wellness. Prior to founding Dipsea, Faye spent time at Neighborly as a software engineer and Bridgewater as an investment associate. With a background in economics and investment analysis, Faye isn’t your typical startup CTO.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
(4:16) The growing popularity of audio as a medium; Headspace; Calm.
(11:21) Building a content library for a SaaS app; content analytics; Elevate.
(17:00) The challenges of building a sexual wellness app for the app stores; HBO’s Game of Thrones; the Showtime app.
(22:59) Dipea’s tech stack; Firebase; RevenueCat.
(34:29) Scaling a SaaS app team; hiring for different strengths and a shared product vision.
(36:55) How Dipsea is expanding into new uses cases: self-improvement and sleep.
(38:28) User engagement; getting feedback from users on what to build…
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Feb 2, 2021
The Next Big Opportunity in Software — Eric Crowley, GP Bullhound
Our guest today is Eric Crowley, a tech investment banker with GP Bullhound, focusing on consumer subscription software (CSS), enterprise software, and financial technology. With investments in companies ranging from Spotify to Fishbrain, and clients such as AllTrails, Partnerize, and Motif, GP Bullhound provides transaction advice and capital to many of the leaders in the consumer subscription software space.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
(8:52) Prediction: There will be 50 more publicly-traded CSS businesses in 10 years.
(25:38) Web 3.0 is subscription-only CSS services.
(32:30) Cost structures for CSS vs. SaaS; Calendly.
(49:08) The evolving investment ecosystem: what does the future of CSS look like?
Follow Us:
David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnard
Jacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeiting
Eric Crowley: https://twitter.com/crowxu
Quotes:
“An easy bet to make is that there will be 50 more CSS publicly-traded businesses in 10 years than there are today.”…
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Jan 20, 2021
Building a Lean Growth Machine for the World’s Largest Journaling App — Darius Mora, Reflectly
Darius Mora is the Chief Marketing Officer at Reflectly, the world’s largest journaling app. Reflectly is consistently in the top 5 Health & Fitness iPhone apps in the US, competing with companies 10X its size. Over the past 6 months, Reflectly has broadened its scope, acquiring 8 new apps in the mental fitness space.
Darius has been in the app space for almost a decade and founded 4 app startups prior to joining Reflectly in 2018. He’s been focused on ASO, free marketing, paid user acquisition, and retention for both Android and iOS apps.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
(2:58) How Darius joined Reflectly.
(4:48) How Reflectly added subscriptions and grew to 12 million users.
(13:40) 3 solutions for getting past the growth “glass ceiling;” second product-market fit.
(18:57) User retention and churn; the “leaky bucket;” Apple’s 85/15 revenue split.
(24:52) A quick and easy hack for boosting retention: add paid subscriptions.
(29:28) Split-testing strategies;…
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Jan 12, 2021
Transitioning a Free App with Millions of Users to Subscriptions — Vu Pham & Nick Robinson, Zero
Today on the podcast we have two guests from Big Sky Health: Vu Pham, who works on the product team, and his colleague Nick Robinson, Chief Business Officer.
Big Sky Health was founded to help people live healthier, longer lives with the help of technology. They are currently working on 3 apps: Zero, the world's most popular fasting app, Less, an app for more mindful drinking, and Oak, a meditation and breathing app.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
(6:07) Zero helped create the “fasting app” category.
(9:17) How Zero is scaling health advice to millions of patients; Dr. Peter Attia.
(13:13) Striking a balance between free features and paywalled premium content.
(25:44) Data tracking; long-term revenue goals and retention.
(32:38) Balancing a mission-driven mindset with paid conversions and return on ad spend.
(41:33) Business success metrics; ARR; volume vs. conversion.
(46:15) Forecasting ARR with auto-renewal status; A/B tests; churn.
Follow Us:
David Barnard: ht…
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Dec 16, 2020
Building a $100k App Business in 6 Months — Zach Shakked, Hashtag Expert
While in college Zach built Hashtag Expert, an app for finding top-performing hashtags. After growing it organically for a bit, he started doing paid acquisition and quickly scaled it to hundreds of thousands of dollars a month in revenue. You can see exactly how much Zach spent to grow Hashtag Expert to that level because he publishes an interactive dashboard that shows the past couple years of income and expenses. Zach is now writing an email newsletter on his process of building a new app business with the goal of earning $100k in profit within the first 6 months.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
(2:28) How Hashtag Expert was born.
(7:58) Reporting in Facebook ads; Zach’s ad strategy as a bootstrapped app company.
(19:40) Pricing and paywall placement experiments; the elastic demand curve; Jake Mor.
(35:10) Zach’s latest project: a meal planning app that helps with weight loss; Weight Watchers; MyFitnessPal.
(41:11) The status of the $100k app challenge 3 months in.…
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Dec 2, 2020
Performance Marketing in a Post-IDFA World — Eric Seufert, Mobile Dev Memo
Since Apple’s big announcement about upcoming privacy changes in iOS 14, mobile app developers have been scrambling to understand how these changes will affect their businesses. With IDFA effectively dead in the water, developers will no longer be able to use device-level attribution and high-resolution tracking to send targeted ads to their users. So what can they do?
In this week’s episode, we asked mobile marketing expert Eric Seufert for his take. Eric has had quite a career in mobile. From VP of user acquisition at Rovio to his recent consulting projects with subscription app companies, Eric has a depth and breadth of experience with mobile apps and games that few can match. He’s also a prolific writer. He wrote a book on freemium economics and has written hundreds of insightful articles on his site Mobile Dev Memo.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
(1:07) Managing user acquisition at Rovio; freemium app dynamics at scale.
(6:30) Why it’s hard to determine the effe…
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Nov 18, 2020
Hot Takes — The New App Store Small Business Program
In This Episode
Apple recently shocked the App Store developer community with news that small developers with revenue of less than $1M per year will pay a commission of 15% instead of 30%. Within hours of the news dropping, David and Jacob recorded this episode with the hottest of takes, exploring what this means for the future of the App Store.
Here's what we cover in the episode:
(1:32) Is this a good thing or a bad thing? (For once, David takes the cynical view!)
(4:39) 97% of developers using RevenueCat qualify for the program.
(7:13) What this means for ad spend, CAC, and LTV ratios.
(9:26) Doing the math: How much of a difference can this really make?
(14:16) 97% of developers are affected by this change — representing only 5% of all App Store revenue.
(18:56) What happens if you cross the $1M revenue threshold?
(26:00) The $1M “magic number”; the 85/15% split.
(36:35) How Apple could help different types of businesses succeed in the App Store; Kindle.
Follow Us:…
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Nov 13, 2020
Taking a Fitness App to Y Combinator and Beyond — Jake Mor, FitnessAI
Starting a mobile-first subscription app business can be tough — there are a lot of decisions to make. Should you bootstrap or raise investor funding? How will you classify your business? When is the right time to monetize your app?
Fortunately, you don’t have to go it alone! One of the best ways to chart your course is to learn from the experiences of developers who’ve been through the process before. And one of the best ways to do that is to go through an accelerator like Y Combinator.
This week, David and Jacob caught up with Jake Mor to find out how he navigated the process of building a subscription app from the ground up. Jake is the founder of FitnessAI, an app that builds personalized weight lifting plans to help people achieve their goals without having to hire a personal trainer. The app was released in early 2019 and quickly grew to over $85k in MRR! Based in part on that growth, FitnessAI was accepted into the Y Combinator Winter 2020 batch and raised a seed round c…
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Oct 30, 2020
The Trillion-Dollar Subscription App Opportunity — Nico Wittenborn, Adjacent
We’re at an interesting point in the evolution of the subscription app ecosystem. Mass adoption of smartphones, consumers’ increasing willingness to pay for digital services, and a better business model — Personal SaaS — are all coming together to create a huge opportunity for mobile-first subscription app developers. Just how big is this opportunity?
(Full disclosure: Nico is so bullish on the future of subscription apps, he recently invested in RevenueCat!)
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
(4:10) The formula for a breakout SaaS business: engaged users.
(5:00) Stickiness, engagement, and churn: B2B SaaS vs. consumer app businesses.
(6:56) Identifying nascent markets before they become mainstream; meditation apps (Headspace & Calm).
(14:00) The lines between consumer and business use cases are getting blurry.
(19:51) We’re in the early stages of figuring out subscription app pricing; Salesforce.
(24:46) Pricing your subscription app: balancing adoption, data coll…
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Oct 29, 2020
Introducing the Sub Club Podcast — Jacob Eiting & David Barnard
Welcome to the Sub Club podcast: a deep dive on building and growing subscription app businesses. Hosts David Barnard and Jacob Eiting will guide you through the ins and outs of subscription apps — sharing insider tips, predictions, and insights from industry experts.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
(00:58) Meet your hosts David Barnard and Jacob Eiting.
(05:11) Sub Club is the first podcast focused on subscription apps.
(05:15) Personal SaaS is a nascent industry.
(6:18) The first billion-dollar mobile subscription companies; Lightricks, Calm, Headspace.
(16:50) How to submit feedback and suggestions for the Sub Club podcast.
(37:19) New platforms and form factors; AR
(44:15) The “AWS-ification” of mobile app development.
Follow Us:
David Barnard: https://twitter.com/drbarnard
Jacob Eiting: https://twitter.com/jeiting
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