Optimism vs. hope, with Rutger Bregman
Play • 42 min

Rutger Bregman is a Dutch historian with a radical new idea: what if human beings are not innately savage and selfish, but compassionate and kind? I talk to Rutger about his uplifting new book, Humankind; the difference between optimism and hope; and why we need to look beyond cultural myth to find the truth. I felt comforted and hopeful after speaking to Rutger - I hope you do, too.


How Do We Know We're Doing It Right is out now in both 

hardback and audiobook, narrated by Pandora.
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