Communion & Shalom
David Frank & TJ Espinoza
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Building a space for honest, subversive Christian conversations on sexuality, ethnicity, and what it means to live in community.
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Mar 1, 2023
#24 - African Voices: Mwendia Shares on Same-Sex Attraction in Kenya
We are so excited to welcome Mwendia Steve Kiengu to the podcast as we begin highlighting perspectives from Africa!
Mwendia is a seminary student in Kenya who’s grown up with same-sex attraction. He talks with TJ about the African cultural dynamics they’ve both experienced around same-sex attraction—how people talk about it, advice they give, and the challenges that Christians with same-sex attractions face.
We value Mwendia’s perspective on sexuality, both for Africans engaging in the conversation and for global listeners expanding their knowledge of the world.
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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand, which is most often a western framing. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend one of these resources as an overview.
* Article from Life on Side B: www.lifeonsideb.com/thefoursides
* Our Communion & Shalom episode: #3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality
Timestamps
(0:24) TJ: On highlighting African voices
(04:09) Introducing Mwendia
(16:02) Same-sex sexual relations (and insult words) among Kenyan young people
(22:54) Are there gay Kenyan celebrities?
(25:36) Most closeted Kenyans stay there (under pressure to marry, have kids)
(32:21) African values on marriage + kids (high), celibacy (low)
(40:41) Openness to celibate partnerships, LGBT language? in Kenya
(50:02) "This is a western ideology”
(58:44) Kenyan Christians who affirm same-sex sex?
(1:00:00) Finding the boldness to build community
(1:05:36) What LGBT language is used among Kenyan Christians?
Links and References
Mwendia’s blog: https://thequestionofsexuality.home.blog/
Washed and Waiting by Wesley Hill (2010) Link to publisher
Spiritual Friendship blog: https://spiritualfriendship.org/
Revoice conference: https://www.revoice.org/
Still Time to Care by Greg Johnson (2021) Link to publisher
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Below are some resources or terms mentioned in this episode, which may help make this conversation accessible to global listeners (inclusion does not imply endorsement, of course).
* Binyavanga Wainaina was a famous Kenyan writer who was open about his homosexuality. Wiki
* Kenyan fashion designer and LGBTQ activitist Chiloba Edwin was recently murdered. Wiki
* The story of Leah’s and Rachel’s use of their maids as surrogate mothers/concubines to build their families is found in Genesis 29:31 through 30:22.
If you like this podcast, please consider…
→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact
→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom
→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom
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Credits
Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza
Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)
Podcast Manager: Elena
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Feb 8, 2023
#23 - Side B Response to Side A: Our 2022 Guests
We (David and TJ) are Side B, and we care about engaging people across differences. Last year we interviewed three Side A folks from different perspectives:
#12 - JP’s Story: Moving Away from Side B
#13 - Ordained, Gay, and Seeking Liberation: A Chat with Rev. Tyler Sit
#17 - Giacomo Sanfilippo on the Asceticism of Same-Sex Love
In January, we got the chance to sit down together and reflect on those three interviews. We anticipate continued conversations with Side A friends, and we don’t want this to be the end of the discussion—please join us as we continue it!
Timestamps
(0:32) Context: What did we learn, and what similarities and differences do we see?
(11:38) JP: on singleness in Side X
(14:41) JP: on why he left Side B
(21:22) JP: on celibate partnerships
(24:49) Tyler Sit: on purity culture, empire, and liberation
(37:17) Tyler Sit: on which cross we should bear
(43:22) Giacomo Sanfilippo: on human and divine eros
(47:43) Giacomo Sanfilippo: on moralism vs asceticism
(1:00:19) David and TJ: final thoughts (for now)
Links and References
“Bill Nye Unweaves the Rainbow—and Undersells Science” by Leah Libresco Sargeant (May 2017) https://leahlibresco.com/bill-nye-unweaves-the-rainbow-and-undersells-science/
“Designing Woman“ by Leah Libresco Sargeant (Sept. 2022) https://comment.org/designing-woman/
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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend one of these resources as an overview:
* Our Communion & Shalom episode #3 talks through the 4 main “sides.” #3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality
* This article from Life on Side B gives a good quick summary. https://www.lifeonsideb.com/thefoursides
If you like this podcast, please consider…
→Sharing feedback or questions! www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact
→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom
→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom
—
Credits
Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza
Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)
Podcast Manager: Elena
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Jan 18, 2023
#22 - Unity and Differences in Side B
Contrary to (some) opinions, those of us who consider ourselves “Side B” on Christian sexuality don’t agree on everything, nor is there a shared “declaration of theology” document that we can all agree on. What ideas unite and divide the Side B community? TJ and David identify 6 areas of unity and 8 areas of difference, within the Side B community.
Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend one of these resources as an overview.
* This article from Life on Side B gives a good quick summary: https://www.lifeonsideb.com/thefoursides
* Our Communion & Shalom episode #3, we talk through the 4 “sides” #3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality
And, if it helps clarify…when we say someone “is Side B”, we’re referring to those of us who are ourselves queer or same-sex attracted (which is different than the larger group, queer or straight, who align with Side B’s general theology and posture).
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Timestamps
(00:23) Why this episode is needed
Shared Unity in Side B:
(05:00) 1. Historic Christian sexual ethic
(05:39) 2. The church should uphold celibate vocation
(06:06) 3. Willingness to see the goods of being queer
(08:30) 4. Same-sex attraction isn’t morally culpable as a sinful action (we differ on what is “indwelling sin”)
(10:19) 5. Using wisdom, not prescribed language, for identity terms
(10:56) 6. Opposition to “conversion therapy”
Differences within Side B (11:46):
(13:37) 1. Theological, denominational traditions
(15:49) 2. Backgrounds, countries, cultures, beliefs, practices
(17:10) 3. How we relate to LGBT/queer subculture(s)
(23:32) 4. How we theologically evaluate Side A (or Y, X) beliefs
(24:30) Where we started affects our current theological stance
(25:36) The value we place on certain virtues (esp. TRUTH) affects our current theological stance
(27:41) How big is the gap is between Side A and B?
(45:03) 5. How we relate to gender norms
(47:41) 6. How Christians should influence polity, laws, esp. on gay marriage
(50:06) 7. Perspectives on having celibate partnerships
(51:43) 8. Diversity in communities (it’s a human problem)
(52:22) In conclusion, why does this matter?
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Links and References
Previous Communion & Shalom podcast episodes we referred to:
#11 - Fractures in Our Moral Foundation | Applying Haidt to Sexual Ethic Divides (July 13, 2022)
BONUS: A Virtual Tour of TJ's Experience at Pride 2022 (Sept 7, 2022)
Revoice Conference: https://revoice.us/
One example of Rosaria Butterfield’s critique of Side B: https://podcast.choosetruthovertribe.com/episodes/rosaria-butterfield-christian-lesbian
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Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.
Find us on Instagram! @communionandshalom
If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom
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Dec 28, 2022
#21 - Tate's Story: Growing Up Gay in Texas
Tate grew up in small-town, Bible-belt Texas before attending “the absolute worst of the worst” of the “too liberal or too secular" universities. We (David and TJ) talk with Tate about his story of coming out, growing in faith, and being a bridge between different communities. We appreciated Tate’s reflection on how the words we use to describe sexuality (such as gay, same-sex attracted, homosexual, etc.), can mean different things to different communities.
Note: This episode includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.
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Timestamps
0:55 - Tate’s background
7:35 - The language of being gay, coming out
16:55 - Community perceptions of homosexuality in language and activity
25:10 - College: taking faith seriously, being gay at a “liberal” university
33:00 - Conversations on sexuality with campus ministers vs. Gen Z classmates
38:45 - Speaking and consulting on Christianity and same-sex sexuality
48:35 - “My understanding of sin changed when I left home”
50:45 - How does/should the Christian church relate to queer people?
55:15 - How do you think about your attractions, your sexuality?
1:00:00 - Christian views on homosexuality: what categories did/do you use?
1:05:00 - Why are you not “Side A” (affirming of same-sex marriage/sexual relationships)?
1:07:10 - How can queer/same-sex attracted/LGBT people fit in the church? What are the positive gifts or strengths of being queer/same-sex attracted/LGBT?
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Links and References in This Episode
Tate’s blog: tate.fyi
Washed and Waiting: Reflections on Christian Faithfulness and Homosexuality (2010) by Wesley Hill
Two Views on Homosexuality, the Bible, and the Church (2016)—contributors: William Loader, Megan K. DeFranza, Wesley Hill, Stephen R. Holmes; edited by Preston Sprinkle
“Being gay is like a drop of ink in a glass of water”—referenced in a Spiritual Friendship blog post by Wesley Hill: https://spiritualfriendship.org/2016/03/10/will-i-be-gay-in-the-resurrection/
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Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or by emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.
Find us on Instagram! @communionandshalom
If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom
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Dec 9, 2022
#20 - How Should We Then Live with Eros? Part 3 with Kathryn Mogk Wagner
True love means… what??
There are many answers to that question, and in this episode, we’re just talking about some of them. In part 3 of our conversation with medieval literature scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner, we reflect on some of the implications of the “pure relationship”—and how combining or removing certain elements of the historic marriage relationship can have big impacts. How should we think about desire, romantic attraction, and the marriage relationship today? And how does this impact how we think about love and kinship in other forms?
If you have more answers to those questions, get in touch!
This episode is part 3 of 3.
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Timestamps
4:15 - Marriage as an image of God’s love: is it more agape or eros?
17:10 - What elements makes it marriage? economic factors, children, romantic attraction, sex?
22:25 - Jesus on divorce, adultery: What’s the underlying logic?
25:35 - Where do we go from here? Directing desire and romantic attraction
43:20 - What is the constructive Christian response to the current “pure relationship” model?
49:36 - Kathryn’s book recommendation: Kristin Lavransdatter
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Links and References
Kathryn Mogk Wagner: kathryn.mogkwagner.net
Anthony Giddens on the “pure relationship”
Sermons on eros by Robert Cunningham at the Good of the Bluegrass Conference 2022 (listen at the conference website; listen to a shorter summary in another podcast from Cunningham at Every Square Inch)
The Symposium by Plato (wiki)
The Divine Comedy and La Vita Nuova by Dante Alighieri; about Beatrice (wiki)
The story of King Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot is told many places; one is Le Morte d’Arthur (wiki)
Eros and Agape by Anders Nygren
Kristin Lavransdatter by Sigrid Undset
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Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.
Find us on Instagram! @communionandshalom
If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom
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Dec 8, 2022
#19 - A History of Romance in the West—Part 2 with Kathryn Mogk Wagner
But not that kind of western romance…
Pop quiz: Which of the following reasons is a good reason to get married to someone?
* Because your family or social circle wants you to
* Because you sexually desire that person (or are already sexually involved)
* Because you want children (or have them already)
* Because you need financial stability
* Because you’re “in love” with that person
* Because you’re “in love” with someone else
Some of these answers might seem ridiculous, but a hundred or a thousand years ago, people concluded very different things about marriage and romance, depending on the age they live in.
We in the West can bundle together a lot of expectations for romantic partners—they should be your best friend, have romantic attraction, maybe build a family together, share finances, support you emotionally, and on and on. Sometimes we separate out just one or two items—attraction, best-friendship—and focus on that alone. But it hasn’t always been this way. In the scale of human history, our current assumptions about romance and marriage are actually quite young.
In part 2 of this series, we continue our conversation with friend and scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner, to look through the lens of Western literature at changing perspectives on romance, (Christian) marriage, love, and intimacy through the ages.
This episode is part 2 of 3. For anyone who has had to work through their expectations for romantic relationships (or other people’s expectations for your relationships!), this episode is for you.
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Timestamps
1:45 - The biology of attraction
8:05 - The ancient world: Marriage as economic arrangement
10:35 - The early Christian church: equality in adultery
12:15 - Courtly love and longing in the 11th century
20:05 - Example: King Arthur, Lancelot, and Guinevere
23:30 - Arranged marriages and consent in the Christian church
30:05- Example: Dante and Beatrice
39:30 - Contemporary Christian emphasis on marriage—does it deserve it?
45:05 - Companionate marriage: Edmund Spenser’s poetry
49:00 - Holiness as celibacy (Catholics) or married life (Protestants)
53:45 - Song of Songs in the church’s imagination
58:05 - The development of the “pure relationship”
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Links and References
Kathryn Mogk Wagner: kathryn.mogkwagner.net
The Allegory of Love by C.S. Lewis
The Symposium by Plato (wiki)
The Divine Comedy and La Vita Nuova by Dante Alighieri; about Beatrice (wiki)
The story of King Arthur, Guinevere, and Lancelot is told many places; one is Le Morte d’Arthur (wiki)
Edmund Spenser, poet (wiki)
Anthony Giddens on the “pure relationship”
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Please share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.
Find us on Instagram: @communionandshalom
If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom
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Dec 7, 2022
#18 - What Is Love, Anyway? Defining Eros—Part 1 with Kathryn Mogk Wagner
What does it mean to love your best friend? Is it the same as the kind of love you have for your spouse or romantic partner? How about the kind of love that God gives us, or that we can give God?
These are questions that people have been asking in the Christian tradition for millennia. Eros is one of the Greek words for love that people have argued about. In this episode, we talk with medieval literature scholar Kathryn Mogk Wagner about how people have defined eros, from Plato, to C.S. Lewis, to a recent conference podcast from pastor Robert Cunningham.
This episode is part 1 of 3.
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Timestamps
3:30 - What’s important about the word “eros”?
4:15 - Eros in C.S. Lewis’s The Four Loves
6:55 - Summarizing Robert Cunningham’s 3 sermons on Eros
16:00 - Eros in Plato’s Symposium
20:00 - Does eros only refer to sexual love?
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Links and References
Kathryn Mogk Wagner's website: kathryn.mogkwagner.net
The Four Loves by C.S. Lewis (listen to original audio on the Internet Archive; read a brief summary of the book)
Sermons on eros by Robert Cunningham at the Good of the Bluegrass Conference 2022 (listen at the conference website; listen to a shorter summary in another podcast from Cunningham at Every Square Inch)
The Symposium by Plato (wiki)
Eros and Agape by Anders Nygren
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Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.
If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom
Instagram: @communionandshalom
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Nov 16, 2022
#17 - Giacomo Sanfilippo on the Asceticism of Same-Sex Love
Note: This podcast includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.
TJ and David talked with Giacomo Sanfilippo, who is an Orthodox Christian and the founding editor of the blog Orthodoxy in Dialogue, where he has become the Orthodox Church’s most well known LGBTQ advocate. Largely influenced by his work on Father Pavel Florensky, Giacomo’s perspective is grounded in an ascetic view of sexuality and same-sex love, whereby Christians are made more like God through acts of self-sacrifice and discipline. Based on his work at Orthodoxy in Dialogue, we wanted to hear more about how he comes to his theology of sexuality, particularly as embedded in the Eastern Orthodox Christian tradition.
Giacomo was a great conversation partner in seeking to understand a theology of same-sex love and building understanding across differences. We encourage listeners to listen closely to try to understand one Side A perspective more carefully, and to think about how people from a Side B perspective might engage people with whom they have distinct disagreements but also surprising similarities.
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Timestamps
1:00 - Introducing Giacomo
6:00 - Orthodox marriage vs same-sex relationships
11:55 - What has theologically informed your understanding of same-sex love?
24:40 - Giacomo’s story
37:00 - Becoming more public in the Christian sexuality conversation
43:25 - How do you integrate your understanding of same-sex love with the Orthodox church’s teaching around marriage?
48:25 - Asceticism in sexuality: a monogamous vision for same-sex (and heterosexual) couples
54:00 - If there’s no sex in heaven…
58:05 - Do people who are celibate miss out on a “need”?
1:18:30 - The myth of being “fully satisfied” in a relationship
1:28:00 - David and TJ on Side B perceptions of queerness
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Links, References, and Terms
Orthodoxy in Dialogue website: orthodoxyindialogue.com
Article: “Conjugal Friendship” publicorthodoxy.org/2017/05/02/conjugal-friendship/
Asceticism (you can look this up many places. We’ll offer just one relevant link: https://orthodoxwiki.org/Asceticism)
Antinomy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinomy
Pavel Florensky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Florensky
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Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.
If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom
Follow us on Instagram: @communionandshalom
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Oct 26, 2022
#16 - Gifts of Being Queer - Part 2 with Michelle and Will
Michelle and Will are two friends who identify as asexual and queer, and we (David and TJ) wanted to hear their take on what’s good about being queer. Before that, we spent a little more time reflecting on those topics ourselves.
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Timestamps
01:00 - In which David and TJ summarize a few initial goods from their own queer experience: avoiding “the establishment”, discipleship, Plato’s take on social contributions, humility, God working in the margins.
10:45 - Please don’t feel bad if you’re not queer (or “queer enough”)
12:20 - Now, back to our regularly scheduled interview with Will and Michelle…
13:20 - Queerness can develop self-discernment, humility, self-sacrifice in suffering
24:50 - Queer people often see the brokenness of the world, need for corporate confession
27:40 - Queer people can sometimes have a “genius” for friendship, be a “safe friend”, and change the script on intimacy and masculinity
34:15 - Queerness: everyone’s a special snowflake, yes, but there’s something deeply Christian about that
39:45 - Queerness disrupts our emphasis on marriage and romance
57:40 - The scandal of a mixed gender household
58:45 - In conclusion: It’s about seeing Christ, and ourselves through his eyes
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Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.
If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom
Instagram: @communionandshalom
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Oct 5, 2022
#15 - What Is Queerness? Christianity's Subverting Influence - Part 1 with Michelle and Will
Join us as we (David, TJ, and our friends Will and Michelle—who are asexual/queer) explore ideas of what “queerness” means. While we can’t come to one single definition, we hit on a kaleidoscope of topics as we explore the weirdness inherent in the word “queer,” the queering influence of Christianity, queerness and the arts, and ontological questions about queer sexual orientation.
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A Few Quick Definitions for Your Optional Reference
asexuality: a lack of sexual attraction or desire for sexual activity (see Wikipedia)
ontology: the philosophical study of the nature of being, what it means to be; the nature of inherent personhood.
autognosis: self-knowledge; the understanding of one’s own psychodynamics, character, nature, abilities, etc.
theosis: the process of humans becoming more like God (this theological concept is prominent in particular in Eastern Orthodox Christian theology)
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Timestamps
Conversation with Michelle and Will:
1:30 - Introductions
3:50 - Queer as a neutral word for “weird”
9:25 - Early and medieval Christianity—Origen, consecrated virgins, Franciscans, and Anchorites
16:00 - Queer theory—destruction of cultural norms, avoiding oppression
18:10 - Queerness, the arts, and avoiding “the game”
(TJ’s definition of “queer” at 20:15: “a special affinity for people of the same sex”)
23:50 - Self knowledge (“autognosis”): becoming more ourselves, more like Christ
29:00 - Self creation: identity narcissism in our current culture
30:50 - Michelle on art that knows oneself, community, and God
33:10 - TJ on difficulties with ontology and gender norms
Further Thoughts from David and TJ:
38:35 - Ontology: queerness as inherent vs. queerness as essence (i.e., an established trait vs a core, created good)
42:10 - Defining queer: “same-sex affinity” vs. “challenging dominant cultural norms”
49:15 - On the social construction of (queer) identity categories
55:15 - Why “queer” should not be synonymous with “broken”
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Links and References
“S04E10 | Collin, Michelle, & Will on Being Ace (w/ Grant)” (Life on Side B podcast)
Article: “Is Theatre Really Queer?”
Book: On the Incarnation by Athanasius (read online)
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Share feedback or questions on our website podpage.com/communion-shalom or emailing us at communionandshalom@gmail.com.
If you like this podcast, please consider supporting us on Patreon: patreon.com/communionandshalom
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Sep 14, 2022
#14 - Lucas: Filipino-American, Same-Sex Attracted, and Conservative Roots
TJ talks with Lucas, a friend from the Midwest (US) who experiences same-sex attraction and generally identifies with Side B but finds understanding among several “sides” of the Christian debate. We see Lucas’s story offering an example of someone processing through faith, attraction, ethnicity, political frameworks, and arriving at a position of thoughtfulness and nuance.
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Note: We use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, here’s a quick explanation. We also recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.”
* "Side A" generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.
Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Specific perspectives differ beyond that:
* “Side B” recognizes people experience same-…
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Sep 7, 2022
BONUS: A Virtual Tour of TJ's Experience at Pride 2022
In June 2022, TJ went to a Pride Festival for the first time, and he reflects on his experience, with alternating bemusement and critique.
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Aug 24, 2022
#13 - Ordained, Gay, and Seeking Liberation: A Chat with Rev. Tyler Sit
David and TJ sit down with Rev. Tyler Sit of New City Church in the Twin Cities, Minnesota, USA. Tyler represents a “Side A” pastoral perspective as an ordained minister for the United Methodist Church in the US. In this wide-ranging conversation, David and TJ to seek to understand Tyler's perspective, his understanding of Side B, and his take on Side A hermeneutics, particularly those centered in liberation theologies. Tyler was an excellent conversation partner in this. We encourage our listeners to listen closely to understand one Side A perspective more carefully, and consider how a Side B perspective might engage similar folks.
(Note: We often use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand. "Side A" generally affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships. “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction while upholding the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage.)
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Aug 3, 2022
#12 - JP's Story: Moving Away from Side B
David and TJ get together with friend JP from the Twin Cities. We talk about JP’s movement away from “Side B” to a more agnostic and/or “Side A” position. We also get into JP’s experience with the “ex-gay” movement, people, and ministries, and we talk about issues he sees in US Christianity that make some of these conversations difficult for queer people.
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Timestamps
01:05 - Introducing JP
12:42 - Cultural gender norms in Christian culture and beyond
14:25 - Getting involved in ex-gay ministries, “Side B” community
23:27 - “There was this push towards heterosexual marriage”
32:36 - Leaving the “Side B” group
38:46 - Losing room to breathe in a church context
41:45 - Thoughts on celibate partnerships and why they can fail
46:42 - On churches making sacrifices, disagreeing in community
49:56 - Shifting perspectives through reading, friends, cognitive dissonance
1:04:42 - JP’s current perspectives on “Side B”
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For Your Re…
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Jul 20, 2022
BONUS: TJ and David on the 6 Moral Foundations in Side B Sexuality
In this bonus episode, TJ and David review the 6 universal moral foundations from Jonathan Haidt’s research in light of their views—and others’—on Christian queer sexuality. This is a follow-up to last week’s discussion, so you may want to listen to that episode also.
If you enjoy this bonus episode, drop us a line! Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at anchor.fm/communion-shalom, using the contact form on our website www.podpage.com/communion-shalom/contact, or emailing us at davidfrank.mn@gmail.com
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For Reference:
The 6 values/foundations from the Moral Foundations research team are as follows:
Care/Harm: related to our long evolution as mammals with attachment systems and an ability to feel (and dislike) the pain of others. It underlies virtues of kindness, gentleness, and nurturing.
Fairness/Cheating: related to the evolutionary process of reciprocal altruism. It generates ideas of justice, rights, and autonomy.
Loyalty/Betrayal:…
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Jul 13, 2022
#11 - Fractures in Our Moral Foundation | Applying Haidt to Sexual Ethic Divides
TJ and David dig into Dr. Jonathan Haidt’s social, cultural, and psychological research on the universal moral foundations, based on Haidt’s book The Righteous Mind: Why Good People Are Divided by Politics and Religion, i.e. we explore how these foundations inform our “intuitive ethics,” which give key insights to how we approach sexual ethics. We also talk through how this theory relates to different perspectives (”Sides” A, B, Y, and X) in the conversation around sexual ethics. We hope that this conversation builds up wisdom for all of us to engage better in being morally reflective, virtuous persons embedded in our larger communities, structures, and lands.
We apologize for some audio quality issues.
Trigger warning: When we are reading the first paragraphs of Jonathan Haidt’s A Righteous Mind, we mention a sex act in the first few minutes of the podcast which may make listeners uncomfortable.
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0:00 - The Righteous Mind's intro to universal moral found…
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Jun 22, 2022
#10 - Pride Revisited & Summed Up
After verbally processing on our last podcast, we read and listened to various perspectives that differ from ours and are coming back to discuss it again. This can be considered a summary of sorts of the last podcast, with some finer-tuned thoughts.
See David's reflection that he shared with his church - The False Dichotomy of Pride Month
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Referenced Articles:
Rod Dreher - https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/the-shame-of-pride-month/
Carl Trueman - https://wng.org/opinions/welcome-to-pride-month-christian-1654083759
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May 31, 2022
#9 - Porch Podcast on Pride Month
What to do about the Pride Month? Reject? Celebrate? A little of both?
TJ and David take a stab at complexifying this simple question.
(rough cut audio while sitting on the porch)
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Jan 18, 2022
#8 - On Covenant Brotherhood, with Special Reference to TJ’s Covenant
In this episode, we, joined by our friend and project manager/editor Alaina, talk about covenant brotherhood, via the particular instantiation of TJ’s covenant brotherhood/s with four brothers. TJ shares his general story, we talk about the general shape and contours of the relationship, consider its relationship to celibate partnerships, and provide general preliminary advice about what it might look like to pursue this relationship in the US context. This is the first of many planned conversations on this topic - enjoy!
Show Notes:
Book - Brothermaking in Late Byzantium and Antiquity by Claudia Rapp: Brother-Making in Late Antiquity and Byzantium - Claudia Rapp - Oxford University Press (oup.com)
Your Other Brother’s Podcast on Covenant Friendship: YOBcast 083: Covenant Friendship w/ Dr. Paul Eddy • Your Other Brothers
Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at https://anchor.fm/communion-shalom or emailing us at davidfrank.mn@gmail.com
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Nov 24, 2021
Recommendation: Gay Identity, Gentile Christians, and Revoice: Misty Irons
Recommendation for episode #916 on the podcast Theology in the Raw.
https://www.prestonsprinkle.com/theology-in-the-raw/916-misty-irons
Preston Sprinkle gives good introductory thoughts on "gay" identity before sharing an incredible talk from Revoice by Misty Irons that we've mentioned before.
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Nov 4, 2021
#7 - David's Story | Revoice, "Coming Out", Facing Tensions, Finding Stability
David Frank shares about his "coming out" story at church and with family, reflecting on formative influences on his sexuality, and how God has established him in a Side B life that is committed to sewing into community.
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[CONTENT WARNING: Story includes brief mentions of direct sexual desire and addiction.]
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1:03 - Revoice Recap
6:48 - Jesus and My Sexuality
14:07 - Sin and Fanning the Flames
17:50 - About Coming Out to My Church
29:32 - Coming Out to My Family
39:12 - Why Do I Struggle Less?
47:43 - Difficulties & Gifts of Being Queer/SSA/etc.
50:33 - Why not Side A? Why Side B?
53:10 - 1st Principal and Foundation of St. Ignatius*
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Show Notes:
Misty Iron's Blog https://moremusingson.blogspot.com/
We had audio inconsistencies that may be noticeable. Apologies!
*Sound from http://www.freesound.org/people/klankbeeld/
Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at https://anchor.fm/communion-shalom or emailing me a…
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Oct 14, 2021
#6 - TJ's Story | Dysphoria, Queerness, Contextualization, and Conviction
TJ Espinoza shares the history of his personal understanding about his own sexuality, and how God has lead him through study, community, and spiritual experience towards a Side B conviction, even if it leaves him with many loose ends for his life.
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[CONTENT WARNING: Story includes brief mentions of moments of direct sexual desire.]
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2:24 - TJ in Americas
19:06 - Queer in Africa
22:38 - Christian College
27:33 - Entering the Side B Conversation
31:37 - Why not Side A?
47:09 - Tension in Singleness (America & Africa)
50:40 - Why Side B?
56:47 - Queer Identity vs Christian Identity | Identity Hierarchy
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*We had technical problems that required some audio re-recording.
Share feedback or questions by sending us a voice message at https://anchor.fm/communion-shalom
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Sep 14, 2021
#5 - You Say Gay-bye, and I Say Hello... | Terminology and Its Discontents
David and TJ get into one of the most commonly controversial topics currently regarding the Side B conversation and Side B Christians – terminology! We talk through some common reason why contemporary queer Christians may use queer/lgbt+ terminology in their lives versus people who would eschew such terms and often focus on instead using same sex (sexually) attracted (SS(S)A) terminology or else encouraging Christians not to use any such terms at all. This conversation is of particular relevance to the differences that separate Side B and Side Y / X Christians in our contemporary times. Apologies to our listeners for some audio issues on TJ’s end.
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Show Notes:
Yarhouse’s post providing commentary on the recent Anglican Church of North America’s Pastoral Statement regarding same sex relationships, identity, language, etc.: Reflections on The ACNA Pastoral Statement – Mark Yarhouse (wordpress.com)
Two side B Christians, Rachel Gilson and Greg Coles, have a…
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Sep 8, 2021
#4 - The PCA Votes on "Gay/SSA Christian" Pastors
David and TJ discuss the goals, statuses, and potential impacts of several overtures (i.e. amendments) that were brought to the PCA national conversation in June/July of 2021. The Presbyterian Church in America's (PCA's) General Assembly was an event of much debate and controversy as this denomination tried to take a stance on ordination of "gay" pastors. While these proposed changes won't directly affect members of PCA congregations, they do aim at barring/removing pastors and other officers from serving in the church if they identify as "gay", "SSA", etc.
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Contents:
00 - Intro to PCA, Revoice, Greg Johnson, Study Report, "SSA Sin", Overtures
20 - General Assembly and 3-Step Process for Overture Amendments
22 - Overture 16: "those who identify as homosexual and claim to practice celibacy"
24 - Overture 23: “Those who profess an identity . . . that undermines or contradicts their identity as new creations in Christ”
37 - Overture 37: Character ex…
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Sep 8, 2021
#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality
David and TJ describe the “Sides” terminology/heuristic device used among many Christians engaged in the conversation around sexuality and Christianity in the US. They describe the most common fourfold system - A, B, Y, X – including the key principles that animate the particular school of thought, key organizations and/or figures, and values or postures that seem to be embedded among people in each broad school.
This conversation will be of use to listening to many future episodes as we are likely to use this system as a basic reference system when talking about the various schools of thought.
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Show Notes:
Here is David's shorthand tool for remembering the 4 sides:
Side Affirming homosexual practice #affirm
Side contextualizing traditional Biblical sexuality #renew
Side whY talk about sexual orientation #renounce
Side eX-Gay therapy #rebuild
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A Summary Chart of ABYX [PNG Link]
A thorough b…
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Aug 17, 2021
#2 - Art, Jesus, and 'Queering' Your Perspective | Chat with Raye
TJ and David have a lovely time chatting with Raye! Raye is a Side B woman, who shares her experience growing up in a conservative Christian home and church, and later comes to terms with her tilted perspective. At times she identifies as "queer", yet she has recently and happily joined in marriage with her husband.
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00 - Gender Roles, Sexuality, & Growing Up
11 - Hospitality and Vulnerability
20 - Explaining your Marriage as a Queer Person
32 - Importance of Friendships
41 - Unexpected Goods; "Queering" in Art
45 - PCA
56 - Sharing Personal Convictions to Side A and Side X people
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This episode is a bit longer than anticipated, so feel free to listen to this as 1.5x speed to keep it under an hour ;)
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Jun 29, 2021
#1 - The Pull to Side A
Communion & Shalom's first episode, where TJ and David discuss why many straight Christians feel pulled to "Side A", an affirming progressive sexual ethics perspective (i.e. approval of gay marriage/sex). TJ and David discuss these dynamics, and the impact on queer/gay/SSA/etc Christians who are "Side B" (i.e. not-straight, but affirm the historical Biblical teaching of sex between husband and wife).
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