Interview - Jack Lawrence and Gid M-K on Ivermectin
Play • 1 hr 19 mins

Chris and Jonathan speak to two guests about the slow collapse of the body of evidence on ivermectin for COVID-19, with a particular focus on the oft-cited Elgazzar randomized controlled trial. Their first guest is Jack Lawrence, a Master’s student and disinformation researcher, who took the Elgazzar paper apart, finding evidence of plagiarism and of potential data fraud. Their second guest is Gideon Meyerowitz-Katz, an epidemiologist, who appraised the Elgazzar study, the Carvallo “study,” and many others, and who reveals some of the telltale signs of scientific fraud.


Guest #1: Jack Lawrence

3:06 Jack reads the Elgazzar study

5:55 A plagiarized introduction

7:46 The paper’s claims

11:57 Skimming a paper versus actively looking for fraud

24:45 Deaths didn’t add up

31:23 The Guardian’s coverage

36:10 A broken system


Guest #2: Gid M-K

41:28 Most likely a fraud

46:34 Is this dataset real?

52:41 The Carvallo “study” may never have taken place as described

58:11, an anonymous pseudoscientific website

1:04:16 Churning out bad meta-analyses

1:07:07 Gid’s verdict on ivermectin for COVID-19

1:12:23 Maintaining trust in science in the face of fraud



* Theme music: “Fall of the Ocean Queen“ by Joseph Hackl.


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1) Jack Lawrence on Twitter:

2) Jack Lawrence’s TimPoolClips account:

3) Jack Lawrence’s blog post on the Elgazzar paper:


4) Gid M-K on Twitter:

5) Gid M-K’s podcast, Sensationalist Science:

6) Gid M-K’s first blog post on the ivermectin saga:


7) The Elgazzar study:

8) Nick Brown’s blog post about the Elgazzar study:

9) The Guardian’s coverage of the Elgazzar study:

10) The BuzzFeed investigation into the Carvallo “study”:

11) IVMMeta website:


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